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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Rootbeer

The Creator/Dark One

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This idea have been bugging me for a while so I thought I should share it, and perhaps see it rip to pieces by the bunch of you. ;)

This is my first post (Yup, I made an account just to get this out of my chest), so if I am breaking any rules or posted in the wrong forum, I'm sorry.

 

The idea goes like this, I don't know if this have been thought up already or not, but it is already widely known that there is only one religion in Randland.

Varying accounts and perhaps a few distorted facts here and there, but they all say that the Creator is GOOD, and the Dark One is evil.

They all say that the Creator made everything and sealed away the Dark One at the moment of its creation when he created the Wheel of Time, but the books also say that the Dark One is the direct opposite to the Creator, a rival, the one to balance out his work, the chaos to his order.

So how could the Creator make something as strong, or possibly even stronger than himself? Why? And how could he lock this creation away at the moment of birth?

This little question is far from refined, with many holes and could easily be counter with a few choice phrases, but it's not what's got me obsessed. It's important, but this innocent little brainstorm led to something else, and that led to a silly little idea.

 

As the book tells us, the Wheel of Time constantly turns, keeps weaving age after age until it returns to the beginning, only to start everything over again. We know that the pattern CAN change. That it is different each time. Ignoring that fact for a bit, I'll go on.

 

As we all know, in any religion, a certain amount of faith is required.

From what we've seen, the Creator never did acknowledge his followers or believers.

The people are left to their own devices, and they believe in the existence of the Creator, even though there is not much proof of his existence. Or even his handiwork.

As a matter of fact, with the exception of the Dragon, the Creator has hardly done anything at all.

And the Dragon is his champion which required to face the champion of the Dark One and keep the latter locked up so he MUST be spun out every so and often.

 

Other than old books and a few stories, what is to say that the Creator actually created the Wheel of Time? Or the world? Or the Dark One himself?

 

Another factor that I've always found hard to believe is the Dark One never once won during all those ages, and the Dragon succeeded in stopping his escape each time.

The Dark One can touch the world while the Creator can't.

The Dark One offers immortality, power, and even revivals. Creator teaches you to just accept life and move on.

Or rather, the Creator can't even interfere with the events as it is.

No matter what you say, mankind is greedy and insecure.

Rather than to support an unseen entity who does nothing, I'm sure most people would rather serve a powerful master who offers great reward and immortality. And most of all, the peace of mind that your 'God' actually exist, rather than randomly guessing this or that.

I certainly would.(Indeed, I'm a darkfiend in the making, folks!)

And the Wheel of Time, supposedly the Creator's very own creation, is neutral.

While the current three ta'veren are spun out in the side of light to counter the forces of darkness, I'm quite sure it has been stated before that there have been ta'veren spun out for the dark too.

Yet, even with so much advantage and the Dark One still consistently lose age after age.

Hard to believe, but possible I guess.

 

But what is certain is that if the dark forces does win and the Dark One does escape, he will be able to essentially create his own idea of a perfect world and replace the current with this version, where he will most likely be worship, while the Creator will be scorned and feared.

 

What if...

The battle between good and evil, the Creator and the Dark One is just an advance version of the tug of war game, so to speak.

Say if the Dark One(Current) does wins this 'last battle' and escape, what if he becomes God, aka the new Creator, while the old Creator is locked up as the old Dark One was. Then, the former Creator starts manipulating the events for his escape, just as the current Dark One manipulates the events in the WoT series. Then, when he escapes, the roles reverse again, and again, in a never ending cycle or battle.

 

What if it has already happened once or twice, that their roles were reversed during the first age, which led to the second age, and is now being fought over the third age. However, there is one thing puts a wedge into my little theory and that is the Dragon Reborn, who is said to have fought the Dark One for many ages.

This theory could still work if their roles were reversed in the 7th Age of the last Cycle, or much further back.

Maybe Rand is the same soul that brought victory to the current Creator and locked the old one out of the pattern.

 

What the people of Randland know of their Creator comes from the Age of Legends, and their source material is from thousands, possibly even millions of years back. The White Tower are some of the most knowledge organizations in the series, but even Aes Sedai are far from all knowing, proven time and again.

 

Basically, my theory ends like this.

Similar to the characters of the WoT series, the Creator and the Dark One are also chess pieces of the very same game, but only much more important, and on a much grander scale.

 

Why?

What is the point of this?

I have hardly a clue.

Maybe some big giant head needs a very elaborate coat to the ball.

Your guess is as good as mine.

 

So...

Thoughts? Comments? Slander?

...Peaches?  :-X

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Peaches are poison.

 

The problem with all this is that its all based on certain presuppositions about the Creators nature, powers and inclinations. I don't know if it helps, but I wrote an analytical summation of the Nature of the Creator based on evidence in the text, starting from the presumed nil point. Here it is, feel free to ignore.

 

Ok, so i created this thread out of a discussion that is ongoing in the "Who says there's going to be a bloody body swap?!?!?!" thread. I basically stems around a question asked by Robert. Specifically, this question.

 

Yeah, the same catechism also says that the Creator bound all the Forsaken with the Dark One at the moment of creation. It's factuality is a tad suspect.

 

As indicated by what?  I'm genuinely curious here ... what happens in the books that makes you suspect that the Creator isn't what he's acclaimed to be?

 

I responded to that interchange in the thread, if your curious. But i will be moving beyond it in this thread. Here, i will be looking at the following questions.

 

1. Are the statements in the text an accurate portrayal of the Creator?

2. What do we actually know of the Creator?

3. What is the Creator's stance on events in the books, and what are his intentions?

 

Are the statements in the text an accurate portrayal of the Creator?

 

The above quote from the body swap thread raises this issue clearly, to my mind. What we know of the Creator is mostly the function of superstition, and wherever we have been able to compare it verifiable facts within the rest of the books it has been proven completely wrong. Hell, the Dark One, the only living being that could possibly remember the Creator has never, to this date, mentioned him. Even when he falls into rants about his enemies, he has only ever refered to the Dragon--and him as his ancient nemises.

 

We are talking about a character in a text, a character whose nature, purpose or even reality we have no way of addressing or verifying... or even suggestively examining.

 

Concider every other of these beliefs as we've been exposed to them.

 

1. The Forsaken sealed in the Bore at the moment of Creation. False.

2. All Aes Sedai serve the Dark One, intentionally broke the world, and now seek to do it again. False.

3. The Dragon was the left-hand of the Dark One and intentionally broke the world on his behalf. False.

4. The Dragon shall be Reborn to bring about the end of the world for the Dark One. False.

 

They are superstitions. And like all superstitions they are based in fact. Yes, the Forsaken were bound, yes the Aes Sedai were the direct source of the breaking, yes the Dragon also had a direct hand in the breaking, and yes the Dragon Reborn will have a cataclysmic effect on the modern world. But these are all simplifications.

 

What makes me thing that the Creator is anything other than what he is acclaimed to be, Robert? The mere fact of the method of that claim.

 

What do we actually know of the Creator?

 

The Creator bears some similarity to the idea of the western godhood, which i suspect does cloud the issue. Try and step away from that for a moment, and take a look at what we actually know of the Creator.

 

1. Supposedly he made the Wheel of Time.

 

2. When he made the Wheel, he impisoned the Dark One--at least supposedly, in reality, based on descriptions of the wheel and reality, it appears to me more as if the Dark One were excluded from the circle of the wheel, not imprisoned. It might be better termed to say that the Dark One was exiled from the Wheel.

 

3. People feel that he has some form of ability to shelter them, or protect them, or influence their lives in a positive manner. This is not a belief structue, but rather whats known as a 'deisis' a pervasive spiritual or social 'feeling'. The best analogy would be in the way certain people feel about luck, or fate. It's not a religious ideology, as such, yet in some ways it is.

 

All three of these things we have by, at best, a billion-hand long source listing. Basically, these are the socialized beliefs that everyone believes simply because everyone believes them.

 

But what have we seen of the Creators actions? As the saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

 

1. We have the voice that spoke to Rand in tEotW. Maybe.

2. A total absense from all other events.

 

The second point is tainted by the fact that we may not be aware of his actions, yet we can state given the way he dealt with Rand that he can't pull strings in the sense of forcing or pushing people to do things without there knowledge. Else, why would he have revealed himself at that stage. So, if he has been influencing events, it must be at a pretty small level, or through direct interaction with a character whose interactions we have not been privy to (which i personally concider unlikely).

 

But what can we tell from what we do know of the Creator's actions?

 

What is the Creator's stance on events in the books, and what are his intentions?

 

The following is based essentially on the idea of looking at what we have witnessed of the Creator seperate of what we expect him to be (A judeo-christian god-like figure--and don't suggest that you don't have some mold of such in your mind, even i do, and im as athiest as they come). Given how little we know of the Creator, it is obviously very loose logic, and i acknowledge that.

 

Firstly, we have the obvious question, why has the Creator not involved himself in the war against the Dark One. To my mind, there are three plausible answers.

 

1. He wont. For whatever reason, he chooses to remain aloof.

2. He can't. He doesn't have the power to actually go toe to toe with the Dark One.

3. He doesn't care. Or else, he has his own cares, and doesn't have time to waste on the Earth.

 

He won't.

 

Argument one, that he won't involve himself, is certainly supported by the comments in the Eye of the World, if you accept them as coming from the Creator. Or is it? (Muahaha?)

 

If he could act, but chooses not to, then why does he in fact involve himself? It certainly suggests some form of vested interest in the outcome of the struggle between mankind and the Dark One. So what is that interest? Is it on humanities behalf? I rather doubt it--for one thing, the function of rebirth and the lack of any form of sin-system takes away any purpose for allowing people to handle their own fight against the Shadow.

 

By which I mean, this ain't the Christian God. Letting humanity deal with the Dark One cannot be a gesture in the function of free will, since the whole 'heaven', 'hell' goal system is out of the game. If he's willing to influence events at all by aiding Rand in that manner, then he's not doing the high minded 'god' thing.

 

At least, not to my mind. Still, its a possibility. But if that is the case, the whole 'Creator steps in at the last moment to save humanity' thing... its out. If he'd been going to do that, he would have done it already, and if he had the power to do that with impunity, and it had occured in previous turnings of the wheel, then the Dark One would know it was coming. A function of pointlessness.

 

But where is the suggestion that the Creator even has the power to slap the Dark One down?

 

He Can't.

 

Thie brings us to option number two; that the Creator can't step in because he doesn't have the power.

 

Once again, this isn't a God/Satan relationship. Or rather, if you want to suggest that it is, go find some evidence. Because there is nothing to suggest that the Creator is some benign being withholding his hand because of the memory of the love he once bore the Dark One. But what evidence is there?

 

1. The Imprisonment Factor.

 

So, the Creator imprisoned the Dark One, therefore he must be more powerful?

 

Thats fine and dandy, but is it a realistic judgement of the situation? The Dark One and the Creator could be exactly even in strength, and due to circumstance the Creator may have won. Hell, the Dark One may have even have been stronger. Concider Lan's fight with Ryne in New Spring. Ryne was better, but due to hubris he lost.

 

Furthermore, did the Creator actually imprison the Dark One in the sense of locking him up? The answer is more that probably no. The size of the cosmic reality that we deal with is simply too large. The Creator constructed a realm that was circular, and he constructed it with the Dark One outside the circle. There isn't even the requirement for a confrontation in that action--indeed, there is actually the suggestion of the desire to AVOID a confrontation. He built walls, not to keep something in, but to keep something out. Any implication of the power balance that can be established by the act of 'imprisoning' the Dark One sort of slids in the favour of the Dark One in that.

 

So, we have the implication of an avoidance system. Something that is then backed up by the following lack of open confrontation. Yet, if the Creator feels so scared of the Dark One, why doesn't he tale a very active hand in aiding the forces of the light--supplying them with intel, only not just once, like with Rand, but all the time. Sort of a 'psst! Dude, FYI, that girl that looks like Tuon... yeah, she's totally Semirhage'.

 

He Doesn't Care

 

Which brings us to option number three. The Creator doesn't care, or rather, he has other games to play.

 

So we have a history of non-involvement, but also the suggestion of non-interest. So maybe he just doesn't give two hoots about the game thats being played out again and again. Maybe he's moved on to bigger and better things, like writing his memoirs, buying a penis car, and getting an offensively young girlfriend.

 

But wait, that doesn't make sense. Because we saw him help Rand (maybe). And, if you believe the hype, he created this wheel with its complex system of self-fighting the Dark One, including hoarding souls in TAR to play hero, spitting out Ta'veren to save the day (and strike cutting figures in their shirtsleeves), providing people with visions of the future so they can compose the bad poetry that we name the Karetheon Cycle....

 

Holy untenable plot points batman, it just doesn't make sense! Or does it?

 

The reality is that what we see matches a being who is more interested than doing something else then eternally battling an insane hell god. He devises a self-sufficient system that protects itself from incursion, then hides, completely incircled by it. He shows no interest in the progression of that system--none of God's 'though must live rightously because i so care about all of my childrens wellbeing'--indeed, he only involves himself at the rare moments when things are looking bad.

 

Frankly i buy this last one. I don't think that the Creator feels overly threatened by the Dark One, but nor does he have enough power to simply sweep him aside.

 

 

 

 

There is a fourth option, by the by. In imprisoning the Dark One and creating the wheel, the Creator may have depleted himself so completely that he is little more than a memory, or a dream--the dream of a godlike being, sure, but nothing to get spiffed about. It might even have been his last reso

 

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They all say that the Creator made everything and sealed away the Dark One at the moment of its creation when he created the Wheel of Time, but the books also say that the Dark One is the direct opposite to the Creator, a rival, the one to balance out his work, the chaos to his order.

So how could the Creator make something as strong, or possibly even stronger than himself?

Long story short, he didn't. He didn't create Shai'tan, he just sealed Him away.
I'm quite sure it has been stated before that there have been ta'veren spun out for the dark too.
No. RJ said it was unlikely that wuld happen. Less comprehensive than what Luckers gave you, but you might want to read something briefer.

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If the creator might not care about what is happening in his creation then it brings us to the question: why does the dark one care? If they are both the same type of beings, and the "sandbox" is large enough to contain multiple creations then why does the dark one don't create his own wheel?

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why does the dark one not create his own wheel?
Because this one still exists out of His reach. RJ described Him as the ur-control freak in a QotW. If the Wheel exists outside His control, He won't be satisfied until that's changed.

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Is it possible then that there are other beings out there from the same mold as the DO and the creator? If there are two why not three or more…? Did RJ shed any light on this?

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why does the dark one not create his own wheel?
Because this one still exists out of His reach. RJ described Him as the ur-control freak in a QotW. If the Wheel exists outside His control, He won't be satisfied until that's changed.

 

Oh, so he is like the kid that kicks other kid's sand castles. That explains it

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A number of members speculated taveren being spun out for the dark.

The rest is new to this site.

This page talks about the two of them:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/creator.html

 

Or the Dark One himself?

I do not recall books telling that the Dark One was created.

 

About the role switching between Dark One and Creator, that actually did not happen at the end of the Second Age since the Dark One had not come out during the Age of Legends.  There was an attempt to free him, but not an actual release.

If it happens at all, I would guess that it only happens at the end of each cycle.

Also; if it happens/happened, both of them would need to go through a major character change.

 

About religion, there could actually be 3 (main ones) in the series:

-One that believes in the Creator (Light-sided people)

-Another that follows the Dark One (Darkfriends)

-A third that disbelieve the existence of both (everyone else)

Distinguishing various beliefs/practices within those groups, there could be considered many religions in the series.

 

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Did RJ shed any light on this?
He referenced manichaeanism, a dualistic theology, and described them as yin and yang.

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Did RJ shed any light on this?
He referenced manichaeanism, a dualistic theology, and described them as yin and yang.

 

Seriously? He referenced manichaeanism? Do you have quotes? I was completely unaware of that. I can see how that would play out though it puts very disturbing implications on the Creator. In fact it would probably imply the Creator is the Dark One--which seems in contradiction to the books--unless the reference were that the Wheel were post manichist thought. In which case is the Dark One meant to be the Christian God? And the Creator revealed through the deception of the Christian God?

 

And who is Sophia? The Wheel? That doesn't make sense. Mani said that the creator bred with wisdom to create the false god of the jews.

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Unless he meant to reference zoroasterianism--which would make more sense. Manicheaenism got way too involved in Christianity--zoroaternianism fits very nicely with the mythology of the Wheel. That would be ying and yang. Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu.

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Although the balance principal doesn’t really apply because the dark one is directly involving himself in Randland events whereas the creator, while providing hero’s and tavern doesn’t really have any input and leaves the wheel to balance itself and spit them out to correct itself.

 

So while there is balance as far as one power for good and one for evil. The dark one has tilled things in his favour by getting involved. So for The religius principal of Balance to apply to WOT the Creator must at some point interject, regardless of the out come.

 

Just a thought. :-\

 

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Where was it ever said that the Creator "created" the Dark One?

 

It is not mentioned anywhere in the book nor has RJ said it.

 

At best, we can presume that the Dark One and the Creator are twins, if you like.

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All that is said is that the dark one was seal “in” the bore at the moment of creation.

 

When in fact it is more likely that he was sealed “out” of the pattern.

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/creator.html

It's a temporal impossibility to seal the dark one in the bore, if that very bore was only made during the age of legends. He was indeed sealed outside the pattern, as you say. Even more so, that is what they constantly say in the books: "The Dark One, sealed outside of creation by the Creator at the moment the Wheel Of Time was placed"(or something along those lines).

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All that is said is that the dark one was seal in the bore at the moment of creation.

 

When in fact it is more likely that he was sealed out of the pattern.

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/creator.html

It's a temporal impossibility to seal the dark one in the bore, if that very bore was only made during the age of legends. He was indeed sealed outside the pattern, as you say. Even more so, that is what they constantly say in the books: "The Dark One, sealed outside of creation by the Creator at the moment the Wheel Of Time was placed"(or something along those lines).

 

Sorry that was a typo on my part I meant sealed in his prison.

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Seriously? He referenced manichaeanism? Do you have quotes?
How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator carrying on the theme, the yin yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books...it's somewhat Manichean, I know, but I think it works.

From 13th Depository, formerly from WoTmania, one of those unsourced ones from unspecified book signings. Zoroastrianism might well be a better example.

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Well, it would soothe peoples tempers, and serve a perfect example of ying-yang--but if RJ said it then its wierd. Manichaeism was not precisely ying yang--the 'good' god had a child with 'Wisdom' which created a monster (same idea as the tree of knowledge) which later got worshiped by the Jews. So whilst Mani pushed gnosis and balance--ying yang--he really had it out for the established godhoods. The evil god of Mani's religion was the judeo-christian god. No one really knows these days but they actually rivalled the Catholic Church as a political religious organisation.

 

I don't really see RJ making a books that have a 'Christian God is the bad dude' thing going on... although that being said RJ reputedly was a Mason, which is heavily based in Manichaeism--so maybe.

 

It doesn't much bother me if that's the case, I'm an athiest--but I see alot of others being upset about it. Of course it could be reading too much into it--though if that was the case why did RJ reference Manichaeism at all? A simple ying yang analogy would work.

 

Another option is that RJ didn't actually know much about Manichaeism--it's based in part on Zoroasterianism, which is precisely what he was talking about. It may be that he had bad info.

 

 

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I think the whole point is that RJ references a lot of religious principals without it ever being confirmed what it is based on.

 

I.e. yin/yang, Manichaeism, Christian god, even the wheel is Hindu.

 

So I think that by using them all no open can say “that’s blasphemes” or “you got that wrong, that’s not how it goes at all.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_of_time

 

The linkis for the religious belife not the book.

 

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If anyone takes religious references in a fantasy series seriously then they are just stupid in my opinion.

Yeah that’s what I mean and RJ tried to get around it. But there are still Some people…

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If anyone takes religious references in a fantasy series seriously then they are just stupid in my opinion.

 

Yes, because religion and fantasy have never been mixed...

 

The use of religious mythology in fantasy is facinating--probably because it is fantasy to begin with, but lets not get personal...  ;D

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I agree with Luckers, that religious mythology in fantasy is fascinating. I also think it's an important part of the story in WoT. Especially since this is High Fantasy. With the DO being the evil counterpart of the Creator, and so on. RJ gave a RAFO on why the Creator didn't take an active part, the way that the DO does. He said it was an "important theme". I think that is because any interference by the Creator would also interfere with the free will of His creation. Maybe it would result in the destruction of creation. So that, once the creation is made, it's only maintained by the Creator - through the True Source - but he can't change the things that are set in motion. Why else would there be a need for the Wheel to be "the most advanced computer you can imagine"?

 

There is also this "Only the Creator and the Dark One are outside the Wheel".

 

 

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