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JenniferL

Towers of Midnight Speculation Thread (Spoilers for tGS)

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I've suspected for quite some time that Bashere is Demandred.  What are your thoughts?

 

Except for interview with RJ who said that so far we hadn't seen Demandred's alter ego. At that point Bashere had been seen already. Therefore he ain't demandred.

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Rand's sickness is caused by the link between himself and Moridin, which is actived in the process of siezing saidin (and maybe releasing too, I'm not sure on that so don't quote me).

 

I always thought the sickness was strictly due to the taint from Saidin.  In the Path of Daggers Chpt. 22:

Rand muttered a command, and Flinn blinked in surprise before hurrying to join the line and weave a ninth gateway. None was as large as Rand could make, but any would pass a cart, if closely. He had intended to do that himself, but he did not want to chance seizing saidin again in front of everyone. He noticed Gedwyn and Rochaid watching him, wearing identical knowing smiles. And Dashiva as well, frowning, lips moving as he talked to himself.

 

I always thought this meant that Gedwyn/Rochaid recognized Rand's sickness because they'd seen it in other male channelers at the Black Tower, while being smug that they don't experience it due to their likely ties to the DO.  If this is true, I doubt the same sickness would be achieved through the effects of the TP via Rand's link to Moridin.  Remember, the effects of the TP on the body are described as different "but no less terrible" than the taint (probably starts with the saa and ends up with your eyes being burned out like Ishamael). E.g., Crown of Swords, Chpt 25, Moghedien's POV:

 

Moghedien gasped. Not for the name; any fool could call himself Death. But a tiny black fleck, just large enough to see, floated straight across one of those blue eyes and then across the other in the same line. This Moridin had tapped into the True Power, and more than once. Much more. She knew that some men who could channel survived in this time aside from al'Thor—this fellow was much of a size with al'Thor.—but she had not expected the Great Lord to allow one that particular honor. An honor with a bite, as any of the Chosen knew- In the long run, the True Power was far more addictive than the One Power; a strong will could hold down the desire to draw more saidar or saidin, but she herself did not believe the will existed strong enough to resist the True Power, not once the saa appeared in your eyes. The final price was different, but no less terrible.

 

 

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Rand's initial sickness was due to the taint.  But, after he cleansed the taint, he was the only one who still got sick.  And that nausea kept getting worse.

 

The sickness he feels now seems to be due to his link to Moridin.

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Tuon does train damane but as a hobby not as a job like the Sul'dam do.  If they work with damane everyday and some of them cannot be collared it seems unlikely to me that Tuon could be.

 

You're probably right but it just seems like Tuon's damane-training is kind of a red herring if it doesn't come into play with her developing some damane-sympathies. 

 

If that doesn't work, Egwene or Rand needs to launch her own return-raid on the Seanchan by traveling to Ebou Dar, kidnapping about a hundred experienced Suldam and slapping a'dams on all of them and leaving them in a public place where Tuon can't cover it up.  Joline's training of Bethamin/Seta might be enough too.  Keeping everyone ignorant that Suldam can channel might be Tuon's plan right now, but once there's proof Suldam can be leashed, can Tuon really justify taking their leashes off? 

 

Once you start leashing Suldam it'll be tough to find Suldam-volunteers knowing that it's only a matter of time before they switch you to damane.

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The whole sul'dam/damane setup carries the seeds of its own destruction, as is.  With the influx of all the captured channelers they've been getting and continue to get, it will begin breaking down under its own weight.

 

No matter what, the Seanchan are going to have to abolish that system whether they want to or not.  The question is will they leave any sul'dam or damane alive after they do it?

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Rand's initial sickness was due to the taint.  But, after he cleansed the taint, he was the only one who still got sick.  And that nausea kept getting worse.

 

Where is there evidence of an Ashaman that got sick upon seizing saidin before the cleansing that no longer got sick after the cleansing?  That's news to me.

 

The nausea did get worse after the cleansing - at least sometimes such as when Rand was about the annihilate Ebou Dar -- and this couldn't be due to the taint, but the sickness could have been self-reinforcing at that point - who knows.  No direct evidence it's from the TP-effect through Moridin.

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Where is there evidence of an Ashaman that got sick upon seizing saidin before the cleansing that no longer got sick after the cleansing?  That's news to me.

 

The nausea did get worse after the cleansing - at least sometimes such as when Rand was about the annihilate Ebou Dar -- and this couldn't be due to the taint, but the sickness could have been self-reinforcing at that point - who knows.  No direct evidence it's from the TP-effect through Moridin.

 

I have never seen anything to indicate any other male channelers suffer from the sickness upon seizing saidin.  IIRC the first time we hear anything about it is Rand's first perspective in PoD where he comments that saidin has been strange and he has been feeling slightly nauseous when seizing it. 

 

This is basically the first time we see him since the fight with Sammael so it seems to point to that as the cause and given the reaction he and Moridin had when their balefire streams touched it seems logical.

 

Rand comes to believe the sickness is a result of the taint, but other then his musings on it I don't see any evidence to support that.

 

 

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Where is there evidence of an Ashaman that got sick upon seizing saidin before the cleansing that no longer got sick after the cleansing?  That's news to me.

 

The nausea did get worse after the cleansing - at least sometimes such as when Rand was about the annihilate Ebou Dar -- and this couldn't be due to the taint, but the sickness could have been self-reinforcing at that point - who knows.  No direct evidence it's from the TP-effect through Moridin.

 

I have never seen anything to indicate any other male channelers suffer from the sickness upon seizing saidin.  IIRC the first time we hear anything about it is Rand's first perspective in PoD where he comments that saidin has been strange and he has been feeling slightly nauseous when seizing it. 

 

This is basically the first time we see him since the fight with Sammael so it seems to point to that as the cause and given the reaction he and Moridin had when their balefire streams touched it seems logical.

 

Rand comes to believe the sickness is a result of the taint, but other then his musings on it I don't see any evidence to support that.

 

 

 

we also haven't met a male channeler that has channeled as much as Rand has before Saidin was cleansed. We might see him become less nauseous because he isn't insane anymore. I'm not buying the fact that he gets sick because of the connection between him and Moridin until we get a Moridin POV or Rand POV that explains it some more.

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we also haven't met a male channeler that has channeled as much as Rand has before Saidin was cleansed. We might see him become less nauseous because he isn't insane anymore. I'm not buying the fact that he gets sick because of the connection between him and Moridin until we get a Moridin POV or Rand POV that explains it some more.

 

Their is Taim who has apparently been channeling for 15 years and is nearly as powerful as Rand(or at least as Rand was at the time).

 

I agree more evidence would be nice the best confirmation I can think of would be Moridin having a similar problem.

 

The other thing I have often thought about is it being related to when fain stabbed him, their are some scene's where he talks about the wound's throbbing with the taint on saidin.  The biggest problem with this is I think he would have had symptoms appear sooner then the first ones we see.

 

The problem with it being strictly taint related is it should have stopped getting worse when the taint went away.  Instead it has continued to progress. 

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Some more speculation for ToM.

 

This will be the book where most if not all of the big betrayals play out.

 

I've already mentioned elsewhere that I believe Amys has sent Avi to her test in the columns with instructions that she hopes will end up killing Avi.  My guess is that the rot in Rhuarc's clan goes deep enough that they openly defect to the Dark.  Possibly killing many more Aiel in the process.

 

I think we can count on Weiramon to make a play at killing Darlin and usurping the Tairens.  Since Min had a viewing of Darlin dying in bed of old age, it seems that Weiramon will, with his usual stupidity blow it.  But, not before a good deal of damage has been done there.

 

The Black Tower is destined to be rent by blood and fire, so we are pretty sure to find out exactly where Logain and Taim's loyalties really lie.  Gonna be even fewer Asha'man when the dust settles there.

 

I want Ituralde to be one of the good guys.  Rand needs Great Captains.  But, Graendal may have gotten to him badly enough that he doesn't have any choice.  The Borderlands may be even more poorly defended by the time that plays out.

 

It seems that Egwene has one more crisis yet to face.  One where her salvation comes courtesy of the Seanchan.

 

For the Seanchan, I doubt the rot ended at Suroth and her trusty lieutenant.  Guessing there will be another attempt on Tuon's life.  Sorry, Fortuona.  She will survive, but that will leave the Seanchan command structure and the Blood in even worse disarray than they are now.

 

Not sure what will happen with Barthanes and the Cairheinen, but something bad will happen there, too.

 

Things will not be peaceful in Andor.  Most likely the Basement Baddies get free and wreak havoc.  Hanlon will probably try to take out Elayne.  Birgitte may sacrifice herself to save the Queen.

 

One of Mat's lieutenants, possibly the secretly mirthful Talmanes will try to take him out.  Mat survives.  The Band will be weakened.

 

I'm betting that Faile finally gives up on driving a wedge completely between Perrin and Rand and tries to kill him.  Perrin will end up killing her instead.  And, after everything he went through to get her back.

 

I'm still betting that Bashere is Bashandred, the unseen man with the knife to Rand's throat.  He will likely succeed, leaving Team Light devastated by the supposed loss of the Dragon.

 

If I've gotten even 1 in 3 of these right, that'll be a pretty good batting average.

 

 

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Not sure what will happen with Barthanes and the Cairheinen, but something bad will happen there, too.

 

 

 

Didn't Barthanes die in The Great Hunt?  His palace was turned into Rand's Academy in Cairhein.

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Not sure what will happen with Barthanes and the Cairheinen, but something bad will happen there, too.

 

 

Didn't Barthanes die in The Great Hunt?  His palace was turned into Rand's Academy in Cairhein.

 

 

I'm pretty sure Bob meant Lord Dobraine - not Barthanes - Rand's steward in Cairhien (although he's in Tear now)

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I'm still betting that Bashere is Bashandred, the unseen man with the knife to Rand's throat.  He will likely succeed, leaving Team Light devastated by the supposed loss of the Dragon.

 

We had Bashere's POV in Path of Daggers when he fought the Seanchan and again at the beginning of Winter's Heart when his wife almost died, and there was no indication he was Demandred.  Also, if he was Demandred, he managed to fool Faile and the whole introduction of Perrin to Bashere was a farce.  Doesn't really add up. 

 

Regarding Demandred's telling Moridin that his rule is secure and his armies are ready, I'm guessing you think the the Legion of the Dragon that Bashere's been training is really Demandred's army?  The Saldaens wouldn't appear to have enough numbers to be significant.  That's something I haven't really thought of before, but I still don't see how Bashere could be Demandred. 

 

Regarding the Legion of the Dragon, I don't think we have any idea who runs the day-to-day operations there, only that the members of the Legion of the Dragon are Taim's rejects.  Demandred?  Eh, maybe.  My vote on Demandred is Shara though.

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Bob you're nuts.  I say that in a fond and gentle way, like one might say to his crazy cat that won't stop clawing his feet at night...

 

- Faile and Perrin will be fine.  RJ wouldn't drag us through 3 books of them getting back together for her to go DF, she's had plenty of opportunity.  Why let Perrin consolidate at all??  She could have put a knife in him whenever she wanted.  They'll have babies.

 

- Bashere isn't Demandred.  RJ said we haven't seen alter-ego Demandred.  Enough theories.

 

- The raid on the White Tower was Egwene's salvation.  It was the catalyst for Unification.  A blessing in disguise...  Next thing we see from the Seanchan is them limping after losing all the to'raken and damane.  They will have made some gains though, Traveling for one.  Elaynes superweapon is no weapon at all.  It's a bloody liability.  I think Egwene will be well protected now that she has begun to root out DF's using the Oath Rod.  Messana is a novice, although which one, I'm not sure of.  (that is my suspicion)

 

- Weiramon will be among the dead at Tarmon Gaidon, no plot intrigue there.

 

- I'd say your outlook on Rhuarc is all wrong too.  Nobody talks smack about the Aiel.  Rhuarc has much honor and has obligated himself to follow Rand.  Don't think he will turn lightly.

 

- Daved Hanlon is in captivity.  I'm sure he'll be let nowhere near Elayne.

 

- I tend to agree with you on Talmanes...  although he may just be naturally aloof.

 

I think your ideas are more paranoid than the narrative suggests...  Trust issues?

 

I'm not trying to be a dick, just saying...  Have some hope man.

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Regarding Demandred's telling Moridin that his rule is secure and his armies are ready, I'm guessing you think the the Legion of the Dragon that Bashere's been training is really Demandred's army?  The Saldaens wouldn't appear to have enough numbers to be significant.  That's something I haven't really thought of before, but I still don't see how Bashere could be Demandred. 

 

Regarding the Legion of the Dragon, I don't think we have any idea who runs the day-to-day operations there, only that the members of the Legion of the Dragon are Taim's rejects.  Demandred?  Eh, maybe.  My vote on Demandred is Shara though.

 

That doesn't fit as his "rule" would not fit into that position. Also, Jordan said we have not seen Demandred's alter-ego so far. I believe the knife-to-Rand's-throat-guy was Osan'gar/Dashiva/Aginor.

 

Jak Masond is the commander of the Legion of the Dragon. We see him during the fight against the Seanchan in tPoD. The Legion is composed of men who are picked up from Taim's recruiting trips (looking for men want to follow the Dargon Reborn). Those who can channel become Asha'man, those who can't join the Legion of the Dragon.

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Their is Taim who has apparently been channeling for 15 years and is nearly as powerful as Rand(or at least as Rand was at the time).

 

 

Taim is in his late twenties (RJ's words), so hasn't been channeling for 15 years.

 

Luckers is right on this one - as far as we get some disproving information, of course.  ;)

 

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What was the name of the weave LTT used in KoD when the Trollocs attacked. Oh yeah Blossom of Fire, what happened there seemed like it could fit the "rent in blood and fire" prophecy.

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Taim is in his late twenties (RJ's words), so hasn't been channeling for 15 years.

 

Luckers is right on this one - as far as we get some disproving information, of course.  ;)

 

Sorry I must have been remembering the scene wrong.

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RJ has had a very weak stomach for killing characters, which makes BrS's comment about playing the headsman in the next couple of books interesting to me.  Apart from redemptive deaths for darkfriends (i.e. Ingtar and Verin), the most important good guy death has been... Anaiya?  Perrin's family members who never even got on stage?  Tylin?  Rolan?  Whoever it is, it wasn't one of the 50 most important characters in the series.  Based on that track record, I'd be very surprised if any major characters "permanently" died from here on out.  Several Asha'Man whose names we know will likely get cut down, some Aes Sedai will drop in TG, Noal looks like a good bet, maybe an Aiel chief, but I don't see any big guns getting killed off. 

 

My guess would be that the "headsman" comment indicates that BrS will be killing off a lot of characters instead of major characters--quantity over quality.

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Apart from redemptive deaths for darkfriends (i.e. Ingtar and Verin), the most important good guy death has been... Anaiya?  Perrin's family members who never even got on stage?  Tylin?  Rolan?

 

What about Lews Therin?  :P

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RJ has had a very weak stomach for killing characters, which makes BrS's comment about playing the headsman in the next couple of books interesting to me.  Apart from redemptive deaths for darkfriends (i.e. Ingtar and Verin), the most important good guy death has been... Anaiya?  Perrin's family members who never even got on stage?  Tylin?  Rolan?  Whoever it is, it wasn't one of the 50 most important characters in the series.  Based on that track record, I'd be very surprised if any major characters "permanently" died from here on out.  Several Asha'Man whose names we know will likely get cut down, some Aes Sedai will drop in TG, Noal looks like a good bet, maybe an Aiel chief, but I don't see any big guns getting killed off.  

 

My guess would be that the "headsman" comment indicates that BrS will be killing off a lot of characters instead of major characters--quantity over quality.

 

I think you presume too much on the reason RJ didn't kill Good Guy characters. I think the fact that Brandon gets to play headsman is due to what's in RJ's notes and not because of any descisions left up to Brandon. For the record Ingtar's death was still a big emotional scene in tGH.

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