Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Aiemond

Prologue "What the Storm Means" Spoiler Thread

Recommended Posts

I really doubt that any form of compulsion is involved.

 

Those men have all lived their entire lives in a culture where Warders obeying their Bonded AS is just "How Things Are Done."  They knew that going in.  Having accepted being Bonded, they also implicitly accepted that their AS calls the shots.

 

It's simply acculturation, not any form of compulsion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious as to why some people think there will be a fall out between Perrin/Faile?

 

Yes, she's nuts.  Yes, Perrin doesn't seem to really see that.  But Perrin is willing to do anything for her.  Including forgive her for stupidity (which he seems to do over and over anyway).  Remember that Aiel guy she nearly slept with in the camp?  Perrin didn't mind.

 

I think people want Faile and Perrin to "divorce" but I don't see it really happening.  Let's face it, Perrin was a much better character before Faile came along.  But his whole life is based around Faile now.  She matters more to him than anything.  That's not going away if you ask me.

 

The only way to separate those two is to kill one.  I would go as far as to say that Perrin would be willing to betray Rand if it meant "keeping Faile safe."  That's how crazy head over heals he is for her.

With Perrin being ta'veren,I think Faile is meant to be with him and that she is a very important character.It fits with the pattern of both Rand and Mat attracting very important characters as their wife/baby mama/girlfriends.

Faile has played a major role in having Perrin achieve his potential.She is the one who pushed him into becoming the leader of the Two Rivers men and becoming the overall leader/general that he is and this is going to be very important come Tarmon Gaidon.He may feel some divided loyalties between her and Rand,but she never asked him to betray Rand.She basically provides Perrin with attributes and ruthlessness he himself does not have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I also agree that LTT is not the source of Rand's regret for the death of women, that it was an effect of his upbringing. Mat and Perrin have the same "problem"

 

I agree that their upbringing has a large amount to do with how they feel about hurting or killing women. However that does not fully explain Rand's feelings. I think that killing Ilyena and then being made sane to understand what he had done, made an indelible mark on LTT/Rand's soul. I think that this is also part of why Rand has so many issues with trying to shelter women. As the LTT persona has emerged his feelings of responsibility and self recrimination have increased.

 

As to what will happen to Rand if Alanna is killed: What affect does being bonded to four people have (three of whom can channel)? I know that Alanna was affected by one of her Warders dying, but is the effect lessened by dilution.

 

On a side note, Marise had Jahar pretty darn whipped. I think that the other two Flinn and Hopwil? are pretty whipped too. Now part of this could be from the position they were in following the attack on Rand. However, I think that their AS were able to Compel them and are in complete control.

 

 

Narishma is whipped, but I think it's for different reasons (the ones that Cadsuane doesn't tell us about).  I also think he actually likes Merise and Damer likes what's her face.  Unfortunately Hopwil died at the cleansing, but I think he had a similar situation.

 

The point has been made numerous times that when Alanna tried to compel Rand he had seized the source right before she tried to, which prevents it.

 

I vaguely remember a quote from a Salidar AS (the one that currently has Lan's bond) that having more warders helps to lessen the pain shared across the bond.  Can anyone help out with those details?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I actually think this will backfire. A move against Aviendha is the most likely course Graendal will take given Min is close to Rand and subject to his protection, and Elayne has her own protections--but Aviendha is not defenceless. She has an angreal, and an ability to sense ter'angreal. My guess is Graendal will move against her and be surprised to find that Aviendha is not taken by surprise.

 

not so sure about avi being a good target. not even counting the angreal, did she take that dagger thing with her too?, but she's with a vast horde of aiel and hundreds of channeling wise ones to boot. unless she does something stupid like picking berries by herself and just happens to walk up to graendal while day dreaming about rand's eyebrows or something :P. on the other hand i'd LOVE to see avi face one of the forsaken and display some of the wise one's weaves we and the forsaken haven't seen :D. she's turning up some suprising talents :)

 

im betting on a lesser character, maybe caddy or one of the entourage. i don't see nyneave getting killed off. although one of the greater characters "almost" getting killed would work too. maybe caddy's lesson to the asha'man happens through her death :D

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I also agree that LTT is not the source of Rand's regret for the death of women, that it was an effect of his upbringing. Mat and Perrin have the same "problem"

 

I agree that their upbringing has a large amount to do with how they feel about hurting or killing women. However that does not fully explain Rand's feelings. I think that killing Ilyena and then being made sane to understand what he had done, made an indelible mark on LTT/Rand's soul. I think that this is also part of why Rand has so many issues with trying to shelter women. As the LTT persona has emerged his feelings of responsibility and self recrimination have increased.

 

As to what will happen to Rand if Alanna is killed: What affect does being bonded to four people have (three of whom can channel)? I know that Alanna was affected by one of her Warders dying, but is the effect lessened by dilution.

 

On a side note, Marise had Jahar pretty darn whipped. I think that the other two Flinn and Hopwil? are pretty whipped too. Now part of this could be from the position they were in following the attack on Rand. However, I think that their AS were able to Compel them and are in complete control.

 

 

Narishma is whipped, but I think it's for different reasons (the ones that Cadsuane doesn't tell us about).  I also think he actually likes Merise and Damer likes what's her face.  Unfortunately Hopwil died at the cleansing, but I think he had a similar situation.

 

The point has been made numerous times that when Alanna tried to compel Rand he had seized the source right before she tried to, which prevents it.

 

I vaguely remember a quote from a Salidar AS (the one that currently has Lan's bond) that having more warders helps to lessen the pain shared across the bond.  Can anyone help out with those details?

 

Whipped or not, Narishma was Awesome when he adressed the Rebel hall of servants.

 

"So you remember his name! Eben Hopwil. He fought for his Aes Sedai long after he should have been dead!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-Kinda surprised no one has remarked on it yet here, but one of the biggest things that struck me was the sul'dam Falendre's mind scheming ways to avert taking the blame for the botched meeting with Rand, and the importance of the fact that she plans to withhold the news of what happened and Rand's message of peace from the higher ups for a while. This is HUGE considering Rand is going to Arad Doman with the intention of stopping Ituralde from completely massacring the Seanchan forces there and unifying the land. Just another example of the problem afflicting Randland of a serious lack of info sharing. Without realizing it, Falendre is furthering the Shadow's goals by allowing the continuation of chaos spreading.

 

-I'm also curious what became of the "two large parties of aiel" moving towards Malden that should have arrived shortly after Perrin's forces fled. I assume Tylee mopped them up as she still has her army with her and was unlikely to leave such a large force unchecked and in her rear. Just would've liked to see a moment’s reflection during her thought process so that we know what happened to them for sure.

 

-I wonder if the “vanishing men” Tylee speaks of are the dead walking or perhaps something else? The dead seem the most  likely.

 

-Mishima: sad way to go. Liked the fellow and to have him die sorta off-screen with an arrow through the neck isn't how I envisioned his death. Poor chap never got to face his Trollocs like he seemed so eager to.

 

-Masema/Faile: entirely necessary and it redeems Faile in my eyes somewhat bc you can see from his thoughts he was already planning to take over a new large following down on Almoth Plain. Also, it was eery and VERY cool to see his madness at work in his thoughts. Perring always talked about the razor sharpness of his scent and how it jumps back and forth, and we see this in how he flips back and forth between calling his followers loyal, faithful, loving brothers and darkfriend cowards who deserved to die including his flip flopping opinion of Aram. Simply brilliant psychological insight in a story. The kind that could never be shown effectively in a movie probably.

 

-I like how shortly after Graendal remarks on how Mesaana was a “second rate Chosen” who could never deliver on the large boasts she made, Mesaana goes and says how the Tower and all its channelers will soon be hers. Seems she really does have her pegged as we all can agree that is NOT about to happen. Also that Mesaana STILL believes the Black Ajah is working undetected.

 

-What struck me most in Mesaana’s dialogue though is the bit about Aes Sedai joining her cause, but primarily those who do it “unwittingly.” Thoughts?

 

-Ituralde: Simply brilliant. Beautiful planning and something I hadn’t expected as I was convinced by someone’s theory that he would lead them to an abandoned stedding in southeastern Arad Doman near the lake that’s on the map. I’m curious just how many “workers” he has in the field and how many men in the city. Seems unlikely that the 200k men who are following behind could manage to sneak up behind the Seanchan in time for this battle without having been noticed.  So is it then just his 150k who were in the front of them? Also, I’m still having trouble understanding how Arad Doman has an army of 350k men??? The Borderlanders I understand since they’re along the blight and so all men are soldiers essentially, and Andor I can understand as well since it seems to be the largest wetland nation, but how did Arad Doman come to have such a massive force??

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
-Kinda surprised no one has remarked on it yet here, but one of the biggest things that struck me was the sul'dam Falendre's mind scheming ways to avert taking the blame for the botched meeting with Rand, and the importance of the fact that she plans to withhold the news of what happened and Rand's message of peace from the higher ups for a while. This is HUGE considering Rand is going to Arad Doman with the intention of stopping Ituralde from completely massacring the Seanchan forces there and unifying the land. Just another example of the problem afflicting Randland of a serious lack of info sharing. Without realizing it, Falendre is furthering the Shadow's goals by allowing the continuation of chaos spreading.

 

It also explains why Suroth is not freaking out about Semirhage in the epilogue of KoD--more than a week after Felandre returned.

 

-I'm also curious what became of the "two large parties of aiel" moving towards Malden that should have arrived shortly after Perrin's forces fled. I assume Tylee mopped them up as she still has her army with her and was unlikely to leave such a large force unchecked and in her rear. Just would've liked to see a moment’s reflection during her thought process so that we know what happened to them for sure.

 

Therava's last comments were her intention to gather in surviving Shaido. She may have taken charge of those two groups and led them towards the Dragonwall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, someone mentioned something similar in a different thread a month or so ago but it wasn't picked up. On first read it is easy to assume that the Borderland farmers are being somehow called to fight in TG, likely with Lan's army. It is strange, though, after I read it I had to go back and see if anyone mentioned what side they are on. Renald seems like a hardworking guy and Thulin says something like "and Light knows...". Otherwise though, I didn't see any clues. Darkfriends are always afraid of things connected to the DO (even black and silver lightning), especially lower level darkfriends. Perhaps the scary dark clouds are drawing them north to fight on the DO's side whether they are darkfriends or not. To be honest, I think they will probably join a "good" army but I was still really creeped out by the compulsiony feeling and the less than overt side-taking. Was anyone else struck by this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, someone mentioned something similar in a different thread a month or so ago but it wasn't picked up. On first read it is easy to assume that the Borderland farmers are being somehow called to fight in TG, likely with Lan's army. It is strange, though, after I read it I had to go back and see if anyone mentioned what side they are on. Renald seems like a hardworking guy and Thulin says something like "and Light knows...". Otherwise though, I didn't see any clues. Darkfriends are always afraid of things connected to the DO (even black and silver lightning), especially lower level darkfriends. Perhaps the scary dark clouds are drawing them north to fight on the DO's side whether they are darkfriends or not. To be honest, I think they will probably join a "good" army but I was still really creeped out by the compulsiony feeling and the less than overt side-taking. Was anyone else struck by this?

 

Yeah, I remember reading over that part multiple times to try and figure out whose side they were going to be on.  I ended up with the impression that they were on the side of the Light, and were going to stand in the place of the Borderlander army that'd gone south, and I hope that's the way it goes.  Seemed like good folk.  But, yeah, the scene had a creepy, uncertain feeling to it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I actually think this will backfire. A move against Aviendha is the most likely course Graendal will take given Min is close to Rand and subject to his protection, and Elayne has her own protections--but Aviendha is not defenceless. She has an angreal, and an ability to sense ter'angreal. My guess is Graendal will move against her and be surprised to find that Aviendha is not taken by surprise.

 

not so sure about avi being a good target. not even counting the angreal, did she take that dagger thing with her too?, but she's with a vast horde of aiel and hundreds of channeling wise ones to boot. unless she does something stupid like picking berries by herself and just happens to walk up to graendal while day dreaming about rand's eyebrows or something :P. on the other hand i'd LOVE to see avi face one of the forsaken and display some of the wise one's weaves we and the forsaken haven't seen :D. she's turning up some suprising talents :)

 

im betting on a lesser character, maybe caddy or one of the entourage. i don't see nyneave getting killed off. although one of the greater characters "almost" getting killed would work too. maybe caddy's lesson to the asha'man happens through her death :D

 

 

Apologies if this has been discussed already, but I'm afraid Graendal might go after Min.  Her relationship with Rand is pretty obvious, so Graendal can find out about her relatively easily.  Plotwise, they've had lots of screen time together, and IF Rand somehow survives TG, it might be awkward to still have to balance the three women, whereas Avi's Aiel, and Elayne went through the adoption ceremony with her, so those two make a natural pair for Rand in an Aiel wedding.

 

It would be great to see Avi face off against a Forsaken finally, and I could definitely see her going after Graendal if Graendal hurts (or worse) someone close to Rand, especially if it's Min or Elayne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious about the small section where Graendal observes her surroundings when she gets to Moridin's new place. She knew it was deep in the NE blight because of the setting sun (as opposed to midday in Arad Doman) and due to the appearance of plants which indicate how deep into the Blight one is. Would that be just north of Shara?

 

There are huts where humans live (where did they come from?) and conduct agricultural experiments with several different crops. Why are they looking for a Blight resistant crop? Does Moridin imagine a world where the DO wins and the whole world is Blight? I'd figured that if the DO escaped, there would be nothing to rule and that Moridin was the only Forsaken who actually understood that.

 

Beyond the obvious question of what Moridin could possibly be doing out there, why does RJ/BS make such a point of letting us know that they are in the Northeast Blight? Not the easiest place to launch an attack from. Far from Tarwin's Gap and though Moridin could possible launch an attack via gateway, why bother telling us it's in the NE Blight?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't." - Min to Rand

 

So are we all pretty much convinced now that Rand was wrong and it wasn't a viewing about Rand and Lews Therin but a viewing about Rand and Moridin?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, someone mentioned something similar in a different thread a month or so ago but it wasn't picked up. On first read it is easy to assume that the Borderland farmers are being somehow called to fight in TG, likely with Lan's army. It is strange, though, after I read it I had to go back and see if anyone mentioned what side they are on. Renald seems like a hardworking guy and Thulin says something like "and Light knows...". Otherwise though, I didn't see any clues. Darkfriends are always afraid of things connected to the DO (even black and silver lightning), especially lower level darkfriends. Perhaps the scary dark clouds are drawing them north to fight on the DO's side whether they are darkfriends or not. To be honest, I think they will probably join a "good" army but I was still really creeped out by the compulsiony feeling and the less than overt side-taking. Was anyone else struck by this?

 

Yeah, I remember reading over that part multiple times to try and figure out whose side they were going to be on.  I ended up with the impression that they were on the side of the Light, and were going to stand in the place of the Borderlander army that'd gone south, and I hope that's the way it goes.  Seemed like good folk.  But, yeah, the scene had a creepy, uncertain feeling to it...

I pretty much assume they are on the Light Side because they are Borderlanders.Most Borderlander cultures seem to hate the Dark One and  take him much more seriously than the other randlanders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, someone mentioned something similar in a different thread a month or so ago but it wasn't picked up. On first read it is easy to assume that the Borderland farmers are being somehow called to fight in TG, likely with Lan's army. It is strange, though, after I read it I had to go back and see if anyone mentioned what side they are on. Renald seems like a hardworking guy and Thulin says something like "and Light knows...". Otherwise though, I didn't see any clues. Darkfriends are always afraid of things connected to the DO (even black and silver lightning), especially lower level darkfriends. Perhaps the scary dark clouds are drawing them north to fight on the DO's side whether they are darkfriends or not. To be honest, I think they will probably join a "good" army but I was still really creeped out by the compulsiony feeling and the less than overt side-taking. Was anyone else struck by this?

 

Yeah, I remember reading over that part multiple times to try and figure out whose side they were going to be on.  I ended up with the impression that they were on the side of the Light, and were going to stand in the place of the Borderlander army that'd gone south, and I hope that's the way it goes.  Seemed like good folk.  But, yeah, the scene had a creepy, uncertain feeling to it...

I pretty much assume they are on the Light Side because they are Borderlanders.Most Borderlander cultures seem to hate the Dark One and  take him much more seriously than the other randlanders.

 

Borderlanders are alo closer to the Blight and have experienced the the horrors the Shadow can inflict much more often. The fact that they take the DO more seriously(And probably are scared shitless of him) than other Randlanders might even make them even easier to convert.

Remember Ingtar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, someone mentioned something similar in a different thread a month or so ago but it wasn't picked up. On first read it is easy to assume that the Borderland farmers are being somehow called to fight in TG, likely with Lan's army. It is strange, though, after I read it I had to go back and see if anyone mentioned what side they are on. Renald seems like a hardworking guy and Thulin says something like "and Light knows...". Otherwise though, I didn't see any clues. Darkfriends are always afraid of things connected to the DO (even black and silver lightning), especially lower level darkfriends. Perhaps the scary dark clouds are drawing them north to fight on the DO's side whether they are darkfriends or not. To be honest, I think they will probably join a "good" army but I was still really creeped out by the compulsiony feeling and the less than overt side-taking. Was anyone else struck by this?

 

Yeah, I remember reading over that part multiple times to try and figure out whose side they were going to be on.  I ended up with the impression that they were on the side of the Light, and were going to stand in the place of the Borderlander army that'd gone south, and I hope that's the way it goes.  Seemed like good folk.  But, yeah, the scene had a creepy, uncertain feeling to it...

I pretty much assume they are on the Light Side because they are Borderlanders.Most Borderlander cultures seem to hate the Dark One and  take him much more seriously than the other randlanders.

 

Borderlanders are alo closer to the Blight and have experienced the the horrors the Shadow can inflict much more often. The fact that they take the DO more seriously(And probably are scared shitless of him) than other Randlanders might even make them even easier to convert.

Remember Ingtar.

Yes,didn't the dark side basically blackmail him into it through his wife?

He definitely got an awesome death.I actually really liked his character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perrin is going to be pissed with Faile because he was bringing Masema to Rand and he had plenty of opportunity to kill him.  He could and should have used Asha'Man to kill Masema and shred his army.  Perrin should have realized that Rand needed him more than he needed Masema and however distasteful he should have turned his asha'Man loose.  Since Perrin was too stupid to realize that there will be a confrontation between him and Faile.

 

I think Perrin will gladly accept Masema's death because of the harm he did to Aram. I do not believe anyone will bring the information to perrin that it was Faile because having only read the prologue I am forced to believe she only used "Cha Faile" But even if it did come out Perrin was about ripe enough to kill Masema hisself and will probably just be grateful the decision was taken from him, and will just accept he is dead at the hand f his followers or some escaping Shaido.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, someone mentioned something similar in a different thread a month or so ago but it wasn't picked up. On first read it is easy to assume that the Borderland farmers are being somehow called to fight in TG, likely with Lan's army. It is strange, though, after I read it I had to go back and see if anyone mentioned what side they are on. Renald seems like a hardworking guy and Thulin says something like "and Light knows...". Otherwise though, I didn't see any clues. Darkfriends are always afraid of things connected to the DO (even black and silver lightning), especially lower level darkfriends. Perhaps the scary dark clouds are drawing them north to fight on the DO's side whether they are darkfriends or not. To be honest, I think they will probably join a "good" army but I was still really creeped out by the compulsiony feeling and the less than overt side-taking. Was anyone else struck by this?

 

Yeah, I remember reading over that part multiple times to try and figure out whose side they were going to be on.  I ended up with the impression that they were on the side of the Light, and were going to stand in the place of the Borderlander army that'd gone south, and I hope that's the way it goes.  Seemed like good folk.  But, yeah, the scene had a creepy, uncertain feeling to it...

I pretty much assume they are on the Light Side because they are Borderlanders.Most Borderlander cultures seem to hate the Dark One and  take him much more seriously than the other randlanders.

 

Borderlanders are alo closer to the Blight and have experienced the the horrors the Shadow can inflict much more often. The fact that they take the DO more seriously(And probably are scared shitless of him) than other Randlanders might even make them even easier to convert.

Remember Ingtar.

Yes,didn't the dark side basically blackmail him into it through his wife?

He definitely got an awesome death.I actually really liked his character.

 

 

Did you guys pick up on the blacksmith's wife "ability" to listen to the wind? The farmer's wife was adamant they leave after hearing what she said, and I also believe they are going to fight on the side of he light. Concern about anything being there if the storm isn't stopped. I hope Lan finds hundreds of thousands of such people w/majority being soldiers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...