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The Thread Previously Known As (Something Else) (Chapter 1 spoiler)


Ziggdiezan
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It seems to me like everyone is reading into this too much, and it's simply LTT's sword. That's the most obvious answer and it's the one i'm sticking with for now. Until we know more, anything else is just wild speculation.

 

Rand directly states that he recognises the sword from his memory, not LTT's. Where precisely would Rand have encountered LTT's sword.

 

The simplest answer is Justice, but im not sold on that either.

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Couldn't it be possible that Rand thinks it's one of his memories , but it's LTT's. It's not the first time it would have happened.

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1. I think too much importance is being put on the sword being significant at all. I'm not saying "Why the thread?", it interests me as well...I just think it could very well be something ridiculously insignificant and a normal -- if mildly interesting to Rand -- sword. That he doesn't feel comfortable telling Min how he recognized it doesn't mean it is sinister or important in any way...Rand is uncomfortable being associated with many things.

 

2. I don't understand the "one-handed" stuff: are not allthe 'slightly-curved-one-edged-yada-yada' blades used properly with two hands, as Rand/Lan/Gawyn/Galad etc all used them...? Are you guys using the "one-handed" phrase as a way of identifying it from a traditional two-handed sword, like a claymore, or what...? Just confused. I didn't read anything about a literal one-handed sword (which to me would suggest a short-sword).

 

3. It does make it vastly different depending on whether or not the scabbard came with the blade as a gift, or was made after. Made after = could very well be Justice. Came with = not a chance it's Justice, and has to have been someone's previously who was a proclaimed (self or otherwise) Dragon. Which makes it equally frustrating, as Amalasan was never seen by Rand, nor was any other Dragon in any form...

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Couldn't it be possible that Rand thinks it's one of his memories , but it's LTT's. It's not the first time it would have happened.

 

After specifying that it was definately from his own memory? That seems very unlikely.

 

2. I don't understand the "one-handed" stuff: are not allthe 'slightly-curved-one-edged-yada-yada' blades used properly with two hands, as Rand/Lan/Gawyn/Galad etc all used them...? Are you guys using the "one-handed" phrase as a way of identifying it from a traditional two-handed sword, like a claymore, or what...? Just confused. I didn't read anything about a literal one-handed sword (which to me would suggest a short-sword).

 

It's mostly in the hilt. To use a proper sword (I'll explain that in a sec) you have to control the tip, to control the tip from the hilt you have to be able to shift that hilt on an axis point--think of it like a rudder. With two handed blades i believe its usually the front hand which creates the axis point, whilst the back hand alters the direction. With a single-handed sword that must be done with your fingers. The blades must be slimer, and the hilt shorter and more delicate.

 

I saw proper swords, because with things like short-swords or machetes its your arm that does the adjustments--slash or stab usually. And swipe. A short sword is an army blade. It's not designed for duels, and does not allow the skill or dexterity of a sword like those Rand uses.

 

Given the description, plus thats the style Rand respects, and that Rand even stated he intended to relearn the sword, he must be going for a single-handed sword.

 

Now I don't have a lot of experience with two-handed swords (read--none), but i have fenced for about ten years, and I don't care how strong Rand's arm or hand is, he simply would not be able to control a sword like those described in the book one handed.

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1. I think too much importance is being put on the sword being significant at all. I'm not saying "Why the thread?", it interests me as well...I just think it could very well be something ridiculously insignificant and a normal -- if mildly interesting to Rand -- sword. That he doesn't feel comfortable telling Min how he recognized it doesn't mean it is sinister or important in any way...Rand is uncomfortable being associated with many things.

 

 

Like what?

 

From what I've read here the leading choices are:

1.) Justice

2.) LTT's sword

3.) Amsalan' (sp) sword

4.) A third super sa angreal

5.) Just some sword.

Since I've got free time:

 

Criteria:

 

-Must be a old sword

-Rand must have seen it sometime in the past (but not LTT)

-Must have a reason from hiding his knowledge of it from Min

-Should match description (arguably)

-Must have been unearthed recently

-Must have some significance for Rand to say "How odd, that they should find this now, he thought, and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding. . . ."

-A reason for it to feel right, as though it was made for his fingers.

 

So...

 

1.) Justice

-Definitely an old sword (qualifies as a few centuries old for sure) Has added advantage of being used to settle the Seanchan

-Rand MIGHT recognize it from Falme, but why hide that from Min (and everyone else)?

-Description of Justice was too generic to count for or against.

-Again, we don't know if Justice was found

-Unaware of what they were holding implies a great siginifance. Surely a sword isn't THAT important, even Hawkwing's. Again, this is arguable.

-Maybe its a short sword, but there's no real reason why Hawking wouldn't have a sword like Lan, Rand, etc. I'm not buying it. Why would it feel right? Resonance between heroes of the horn? It was Hawkwing's sword not LTT's/...

 

2.) LTT's sword

-Old, I feel too old, to count as centuries old.

-Rand may recognize it from LTT, but we have reason so far to doubt Rand's sanity to that extent. (I for one don't believe he's gone off the deep end for good)

-No description given to compare against

-Why would people give Rand a randomly recently unearthed sword? Because of the dragons on it? Possible, maybe even likely...anything to appease the Lord Dragon right?

-I don't why Rand would consider LTT's sword to be so important (assuming it is only a sword).

-Memory? Familiarity?

 

3.)The sword of a false dragon

-Old for sure

-Where would Rand have seen it? We've heard little enough of the significant false dragons, and we've got no reason to assume Rand knows their description.

-No descriptions (we don't even know they existed)

-Same logic as LTT's sword.

-Why consider a weapon (however well made) so important

-No reason for it to feel familiar

 

4.) Third super sa angreal (apparently, shaping them like swords was the fashion back in the day)

-Old...very old...too old?

-Rand has NOT seen it. he's happy with the CK and callandor

-No prior description

-Same logic as before for this criteria

-Obvious - if he knows what it is. Which he does if his statements are to be believed. So where did he find out about it? And how come he can recognize it if its just been unearthed?

-Obvious, angreal feel right.

 

Sorry if someone's posted something like this before. Treat this as my personal summary if they have.

 

 

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Everry theory about the sword is unlikely at this point. There simply isn't enough info to single a possibility out, or even rule a possibility out for that matter. We have no way of knowing if the sword has even been seen/ mentioned/ referenced before. It could be something totally off the wall.

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I believe that I might have some possible evidence that it is BOTH Amalasan's and Hawkwing's sword.  From The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time:  (my comments in parentheses)

 

P. 103:  It is impossible to tell the history of Artur Hawkwing without beginning with Guaire Amalasan.  Early in FY 939, while the snows still fell, Amalasan named himself the Dragon Reborn in Darmovan (modern-day Tarabon).  He raised a banner which showed the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai on a field of blue and called those who followed him the Children of the Dragon (so apparently he did use some Dragon symbology, despite the banner).

 

From internal evidence, he was an educated man, with a considerable knowledge of the Prophesies of the Dragon...

 

(About Artur and Amalasan, p. 103-106:)

 

By FY 942 he was called Hawkwing. His personal sigil was the Golden Hawk, and the banner of Shandalle featured three golden hawks in flight, but all sources agree that the name came from the speed with which he moved his troops.

 

in the spring of FY 943...Artur Hawkwing was moving south out of Tova (present day Cairhien) to join the fighting in Khodomar (present day N. Tear).  Amalasan...intended to cross the Marasides (S. border of Cairhien) and strike into Tova.

 

(after two days of fighting in which Hawkwing was almost defeated)...Amalasan's army was preparing to move on the pass...Hawkwing struck...Caught by surprise, Amalasan's forces came very near collapse in the first half-hour. Amalasan could have rallied them and turned the battle his way--he had done as much before-- but Hawkwing and his horseman drove straight for Amalasan's banner, with them the Aes Sedai, and Amalasan was taken.  (this sounds like a personal mission to me, to ride into danger to capture the leader while the armies still clashed...or a mission to bring the false Dragon to justice)

 

Amalasan was taken into Tar Valon immediately upon his arrival to the White Tower, where he was tried over a space of several days and sentenced to stilling...By the summer of FY 943, Artur Hawkwing was back in Shandalle, in what is now considered the first year of the rule of Artur the High King...the period FY 943-963 is called...the Wars of Consolidation.  (it appears that around this time is when his Sword became famed in all the battles he had to fight).

 

Pages 108-112:

 

There is evidence that he began massive planning in the winter of FY 989.  In FY 992, a force of incredible dimensions...sailed into the Aryth Ocean from the western ports...perhaps Hawkwing received dire reports from these expeditions..in early summer of FY 994, Artur Hawkwing was stricken by a sudden illness...for much of the next month he was fever-ridden and delirious, often shouting for his sword, Justice.  (not a great sword in this reference...and the first time the sword is mentioned in the BWB)....the Great Hawkwing died less than an hour before the news arrived of the tragic deaths of his daughter Laiwynde and her son, the last of Hawkwing's blood this side of the oceans. (no blood kin for Justice to pass to, it would likely go to one of his advisors or generals like Souran, if it hadn't been stolen once he died)

 

About Ishy and Hawkwing (p. 114-115):

 

Very little is known of Moerad, though he appears in several sources, most notably in letters gathered in the Terhana Library in Bandar Eban (another tie-in to Arad Doman).

 

 

My thoughts:

 

Time span from disappearance of Justice to current day (p. 118)

 

FY 994: Hawkwing's death

FY 994-1117: War of Hundred Years

FY 1135 became NE 1

NE 999 (current year?)

 

So approximately 1140 years have passed since Hawkwing's death.  I assume it wasn't immediately buried upon his death, but probably passed from fortune seeker to fortune seeker for a bit of time, and perhaps ended up in the Almoth Plain around the time when the 24 nations that sprang up after his death had faded to only 14 (around 600 NE).  This would hash with the "centuries" comment.

 

Amalasan was obviously a man who know of the Prophesies, as he called his followers the People of the Dragon.  It isn't far fetched to assume that he used Dragon heraldry on his weapon.  He conquered so many countries so fast that it seemed every remaining free ruler was ready to fight against him to save their lands, Hawkwing among them.  What started out as a simple act of self preservation (forming Shandalle's army), could easily have turned into indignation and a personal vendetta by Hawkwing against Amalasan for his casting down of other sovereigns of the land.  He had to be brought down before he destroyed them all.  When they finally faced in Khodomar, it is obvious from the above account that Hawkwing was nearly defeated and should have retreated through the Jolvaine pass, but instead against all convention, split his forces and rode with a small group straight for Amalasan (a man who could channel) to capture him.  That sounds like the acts of a man willing to do anything (even risk his entire army) to bring down the false Dragon.  After his capture, I wouldn't be surprised if Hawkwing kept Amalasan's sword as a trophy and named it Justice for the act it was to commemorate (bringing the false dragon to Justice).  You don't hear of Justice before the Wars of Consolidation, so it seems likely that he didn't have it prior to the capture of Guaire. It is impossible to tell the history of Artur Hawkwing without beginning with Guaire Amalasan.  That is the quote from the BWB.  They make it clear that if Guaire had not risen as a false Dragon, Hawkwing might have never achieved the fame he had, instead remaining a king of Shandalle, a tiny nation along the Erinin.  I know much of this is wild speculation on my part, but I feel the connection between Amalasan and Hawkwing is very strong and makes a good case for Justice being Amalasan's sword, which Hawkwing took from him upon his capture.   I also agree that Rand must have seen it during Falme, as that is the only thing that makes the "his own memories" bit make sense.  The "they didn't know what they were giving him" line would fit as well, as who would knowingly give away the sword of Artur Hawkwing?  It also could prove very valuable as a bargaining chip with Tuon.

 

Sorry for the long ramble, but the Sword piqued my interest as well, and I wanted to do the research on it. :)

 

Claire

 

 

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A couple of more quotes that could have bearing:

 

Ishy to Rand, TEoTW, Ch. 14: ..."I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."

 

If Ishy was there as Moerad, it is very possible he took Justice and could have stashed it away somewhere all this time.  We know Ishy as Moridin seems to be relatively...nice...to Rand in other instances (helping him in Shadar Logoth, etc), and it could be possible he arranged for the weapon to be found and given to Rand, to increase Chaos if nothing else.  The tie-in to Ishy being responsible for the expeditions to Seanchan and Shara would also make the sword of Hawkwing a fortuitous find at this moment, when they are returning.

 

Hawkwing to Rand, TGH Ch. 47:

 

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. 'I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you.' His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. 'Something is wrong here. Something holds me.' Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. 'You are here. Have you the banner?' A murmur ran through those behind him.

'Yes.' Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon's banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion's knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.

'The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,' Artur Hawkwing said. 'You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.'

 

This sounds a bit like dry irony to me about the situation..a man whose fame was started by capturing a false Dragon now having to follow one.

 

Suroth to Morgase: ACoS, Ch. 26

"There are many things we must speak of, Morgase, yet I will be brief at this first talk. We Seanchan return to reclaim what was stolen from the heirs of the High King, Artur Paendrag Tanreall."

 

Besides the lands, might the Seanchan want to see the legendary Sword of Hawkwing back in the hands of his descendants, which they might well see as being "stolen" after it disappeared following his death?

 

 

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Some people are saying it's the third uber-powerful male sa'angreal. It was referenced by Lanfear in TSR as being on of the two more powerful than Callandor ever made for a man. The third being the male Chodan Kal. This theory explains a number of things:

1. Rand says that it feels right in his hands which could be about anything, but angreal are usually like that.

2. He says those who gave it to him had no idea what they had unearthed (the 2nd most powerful sa'angreal).

3. He said he remembered the sword from his own memory (his meeting with Lanfear in TSR)

 

I'd like to believe that's what it is due to the sheer awesomeness of it, but it could just as well be something we don't know about.

 

It isn't a Sa'Angreal or Ter'Angreal of even an Angreal.

Rand thinks to himself that reaching for the sword when he was startled was an instinct that was going to get him killed when he could make "A much more potent" weapon using Saidin. I hardly think he would think this if it was a Sa'Angreal or anything to do with the power. When you think about it for a second it is some pretty conclusive evidence. :)

 

 

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Couldn't it be possible that Rand thinks it's one of his memories , but it's LTT's. It's not the first time it would have happened.

 

This is definitely a possibility in my mind.  While I'm currently "pro-Justice" theory, I was just thinking that it could be entirely possible that what we are seeing here is Min's viewing of the two people "merging together" coming true.  Lews Therin and Rand could possibly be merging, until one won't be distinguishable from another.  This started back in early books, when Rand was able to weave things without understanding what they were, or remembering Lews Therin's life/memories, etc...  Maybe they're now merging to the point where Rand completely thinks that his memories and Lews Therin's memories are his.  He might just be sorely confused without knowing it.  If so, this would be classic RJ subtlety. 

 

On a side note:  How AWESOME is it that we have something new to discuss!  It almost makes me want to discuss chapter by chapter just like this when the book does come out.

 

Thank you TOR and BS!

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He might not have ever seen this sword.  It's possible that he was told about this sword (maybe by the finns?).  It says he recognizes it...it never says he's seen it before. 

 

It's kinda like "turn left when you come across the oak tree that was struck by lightning..."  You may not have seen the oak tree before, but you'll recognize it when you see it.

 

Having said that, I don't think that's the answer...I was just throwing it out there.  The only reason I don't think this is the answer though, is because of the distinction made between his memories and LTT's.

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He might not have ever seen this sword.  It's possible that he was told about this sword (maybe by the finns?).  It says he recognizes it...it never says he's seen it before. 

 

It's kinda like "turn left when you come across the oak tree that was struck by lightning..."  You may not have seen the oak tree before, but you'll recognize it when you see it.

 

Having said that, I don't think that's the answer...I was just throwing it out there.  The only reason I don't think this is the answer though, is because of the distinction made between his memories and LTT's.

 

Yes, much like SCOTUS's view on pornography.  Its a possibility that Rand has never actually physically seen the sword before.  He could have read about it and recognized it.  The prologue should hopefully clarify this a bit (at least to the point where we can make educated guesses).

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i've read the arguments, it the sword is the main thing bugging me about chapter 1, and i have to say i'm coming down on the Justice side, i'm calling 90% of being justice, 9% of guidel's and 1% of being something else

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I'm leaning towards Justice as well.

 

Maybe he'll use it to kill/seriously harm Semirhage?  That would be a fitting use for a sword of that name, I think.

 

Well since he won't let Cadsuane or Nynaeve even threaten her. I seriously doubt he's going to walk up while she's bound and sheilded and just run her through. We've seen plenty enough of Rand unwillingness to harm women.

I have a strange feeling eventually he's going to be forced to, but it won't Semmi. If anyone kills her it will be Cad, Nyn or Alivia. In my opinion.

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For this new sword to have any significance this late in the series, it would need to be very important.  We know it's at least centuries old.

 

There's a very short list of people famous enough for their swords to be remembered.  Lews Therin obviously had a sword (else how could he and Be'lal have turned swords from a sport to war?), but none are ever named.  If the sword was Lews Therin's, who would want it?  Most people would want to re-bury it right away and forget all about it.

 

Gaidal Cain has his two swords, and Amerasu has the Sword of the Sun, but are those swords significant enough to matter?  If Rand handed Tuon one of those swords, would it accomplish anything?  Would giving (or showing) a famous sword to anyone else matter?

 

It seems that the only people to whom a sword would matter are the Seanchan, and, given their godlike worship of Luthair and Artur Paendrag, it seems the sword must have belonged to one of them.  Rand's had only one experience where he could have seen any famous swords out of history, and Artur Hawkwing was there, with Justice.

 

 

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A lot of people are missing the subtly of the Chapter, and Sanderson's writing. The sword isn't important because it is old and apparently designed for Rand, it is important because of what it means to him. This is why he has not even mentioned it to Min; he tries to protect her from his darker side. The sword, you see, belonged to the first man Rand killed; the Seanchan High Lord Turak.

 

The quote again in full;

 

He relaxed his hand on his sword, though he did not release it. He fingered the cloth-tied hilt. The weapon was long, slightly curved, and the lacquered scabbard was painted with a long, sinuous dragon of red and gold. It looked as if it had been designed specifically for Rand—and yet it was centuries old, unearthed only recently. How odd, that they should find this now, he thought, and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding. . . .

He had taken to wearing the sword immediately. It felt right beneath his fingers. He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly, from Lews Therin’s memories—but Rand’s own.

 

Turak's sword was left in Falme, the same area of the world that Rand is currently resting. Although we can only guess at whom Rand refers to as 'they', it stands to reason 'they' might be Domani nobility or some other local individual of power who might see a benefit in presenting the Dragon Reborn with a gift. The same sort of individual whom possession of a rare heron-marked sword might fall too...

 

This is why Rand says 'It felt right beneath his fingers'. You become a blademaster by defeating a blademaster, and in doing so inherit his sword.  Rand is therefore the rightful owner of the blade. This is what 'and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding. . . .' means. 'They' had no idea of the swords significance to Rand.

 

The other part of that sentence, 'How odd, that they should find this now' is also significant. What happened to make 'now' important?

 

In the last book when Rand lost his hand, he also lost the Dragon Sceptre. The Sceptre, as you might remember, was a Seanchan spearhead Rand had kept to remind him of their coming return and the problem he had yet to face. But a Maiden caved Dragons into the hilt and it since became something like a rulers sceptre to him, and so he keeps it long after the Seanchan return.

 

Rand would see the sword as a fitting replacement for the Sceptre, coming as it did from a Seanchan lord. The first part of the sentence is his surprise at receiving it so soon after loosing the Sceptre.

 

There are of course two obvious arguments against this theory, the first being why Rand did not recognise the Dragon on the scabbard while in Falme? In answer to this I can only say that Rand notices very little detail in the passage, only spotting the heron on the blade when it is right in front of him.

 

The second is, why didn't a Seanchan High Lord recognise the Dragon on the scabbard? To that I'd say that while Turak was a collector of such rare things, he was not knowledgeable about such things. He valued the seal because it was made of cuendillar, not because he knew what it was. He might value such a sword for the same reasons of ignorance.

 

This theory is also compatible with the 'sword of the false Dragon' idea. If it had been made and decorated with Dragons for the one pulled down by Hawkwing and his armies in the Second War of the Dragon, it stands to reason that such a weapon might have been kept and carried over the ocean by his armies.

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But wasn't Turak's sword a thick curved blade like a scimitar? Rand has only used katana like blades. Even his sword of power from TDR until Avi gives him Laman's sword was a katana. I doubt he would switch the type of sword he was using since he would have to not only relearn the sword with one hand but also learn the balance and limits of a new sword.

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I just don't think that Turak's sword is significant enough to get this kind of attention.  With that said, SteveD's argument was sound enough that if it does turn out to somehow be Turak's, sword, I will not be disappointed.  SteveD gave some really good reasons for me to be okay with it if it does turn out that way.

 

Still, I don't think it's Turak's. 

 

Yet another thought popped into my head when I re-read the quote.  Maybe he "recognizes" it by the description (as has been previously mentioned) but he hasn't yet seen it.  Maybe he recognizes it from a passage from the Prophecies of the Dragon, like it is a symbol of some significance that is meant to come before something else that was prophesied will happen.  Thus the "odd that they should find this now" (emphasis added).  Just a thought.

 

I keep posting thoughts/ideas about where it could possibly be from, but I still subscribe to the Justice theory.

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Everry theory about the sword is unlikely at this point. There simply isn't enough info to single a possibility out, or even rule a possibility out for that matter. We have no way of knowing if the sword has even been seen/ mentioned/ referenced before. It could be something totally off the wall.

 

This is true, however, something from LTT's memory was directly commented on. There is unlikely and UNLIKELY.

 

oops sorry for making that title. bit confused that the guy is in the Gather Storm forum looking around though haha.

 

There are non-spoiler topics within this board that many are active in--prediction topics and the like. Also remember topic titles most recently commented in appear in the general forum directory.

 

That being said for a few days there I didn't think of the potential spoiler issues, so don't beat yourself up on it.

 

It isn't a Sa'Angreal or Ter'Angreal of even an Angreal.

Rand thinks to himself that reaching for the sword when he was startled was an instinct that was going to get him killed when he could make "A much more potent" weapon using Saidin. I hardly think he would think this if it was a Sa'Angreal or anything to do with the power. When you think about it for a second it is some pretty conclusive evidence

 

Again, I agree with you, but I'm sorry you argument doesn't sustain completely dismissing the issue. It is still posible, albeit unlikely.

 

 

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The Turak logic was definitely sound aside from it being mentioned as buried, but it's still plausible. In TGH his sword is described as long, slightly curved, and heavy; so there's no objection there. I still don't think it's Justice or Turak's, but like i said before there's no way to rule anything out.

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