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Were they helping or was it part of the Pattern?


Matrim DeLaneous
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A question came to mind as I was reading the Matt's Luck & Channeling thread.  Were the Aelfin & Eelfin intentionally trying to help Matt considering the answers they provided and the information infusted in to his head.  Remember, Matt indicated that he wanted the holes in his memor filled.  I find it interesting that of all the memories from those who have stepped through the doorways and those who have entered the ToG, Matt's primary memories relate to battle and warfare.  Very useful in the current context. 

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not all are battle memories, in book 6 when he is dancing with maids he has memories of other dances from other peoples memories  :D

That's why I said primary or primarily.  In TFoH, Matt himself states that he mostly remember battles. The question still remains.  He could have been granted the memories of the deceased leaders of Mayene.  Why is it that the memories he obtained are primarily from battle leaders?

 

 

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not all are battle memories, in book 6 when he is dancing with maids he has memories of other dances from other peoples memories  :D

That's why I said primary or primarily.  In TFoH, Matt himself states that he mostly remember battles. The question still remains.  He could have been granted the memories of the deceased leaders of Mayene.  Why is it that the memories he obtained are primarily from battle leaders?

 

 

 

Who can say?  What we do know, is if  The Great Lord of the Dark takes over, it will not be just Randland that feels the pain.  It is not with merrit to think they played a hand to help him.  Though, Mat says a few times, not all the memories are of battles, no clue as to how mnay are of what.  We just seem to hear more about the battles. :)

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The Finn feed off of memories, it's possible that they can pick ones that are suited to the personality in question. It's also possible that we don't know enough about the nature of the Finn to answer this. Questions of the Shadow are forbidden... is this because they're tied to the Shadow? Maybe they're AGAINST the Shadow, and giving Mat those memories is their fight against it. Perhaps they're entirely powerless to see the Shadow, and they're just cranky and wanna oppose what they have no leverage against.

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i always found this funny, the Aiel took the fox doorway when the AOL AS sent em out and the snake doorway was held by Mayene for awhile and AS studied it for quite some time.

 

remember that they have been using the snake door for sometime although sparingly/limited

 but than u have the story Mat relates of the oldman getting a purse that never ran out of gold as part of it and coming out years later, sounds like the fox doorway yet that doorway is locked up in Rhuidia?sp? no chance for some random walk in

 that still leaves the ToG and Bridgette knows the sign for entering it so maybe that was used back when the sign was know and used more often by adveturing people, men with great bravery

like the men RJ states as examples of the memories in Mat's head great men of courage , explorers , adventureres, soldiers, ...

because if they were from the snakes ( Mat's memories ) there should be AS and Mayene rulers in Mat's head, and as of yet i have not seen any mention of em ( and why not Rand's or Moiraines memories if the snakes did that or even his own limited memories recycled right back at himself? lol )

seeing as how we don't know if the snakes and foxes are allies or 2 seperate factions w/ similiar trade? ( i kinda see them as Coke and Pepsi , they both have their own brand, not really allies )

so in my belief that the memories were used as payment to the foxes at some point by past explorers using the ToG that made bargains w/ the foxes.

 

 

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The way I understood it was that he got the entire lives of the men's memory, sure most of them were tacticians but then he got their other memories aswell, the dancing thing is an indication of that. He also knows how you behaved at court from old nations long gone. So the memories werent selected but rather the men from they came from were.

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The Finn feed off of memories, it's possible that they can pick ones that are suited to the personality in question.

 

This is consistent with what I believe.  I believe there is evidence that they see the pattern and how someone's thread is and will be woven into the pattern.  They are then able to see answers and provide wishes that are suited to personality, destiny, etc.

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We really don't know much about the Finns' motivations, but I'm inclined to believe that they were not trying to help Mat but rather just filled the gaps in him memories with whatever random memories they had available.  Most of them have to do with wars because only the bravest warriors and adventures would dare enter the land of the Finns, at least I assume so since based on the leather that the Eelfin wore we know that some humans have had unpleasent encounters with them.  So the memories of warriors and adventurers were all they had available.

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One explanation (that does make a lot of sense) could be that it takes something extra for an experience to become a part of the Finns memory collection. Sipping on a cup of tea a rainy thursday afternoon does not quite make the cut, fighting for your life does. If the Eelfinn wants emotions and sensations, like the Selfinn, they probably want something stronger than 'content'. Obviously, fighting for your life would register. As would (for most blokes anyway) dancing with a lovely lass.

Also, most of the time, the memories that floats up in Mats mind are ones that fits the situation he is in, so there could be a lot of other kinds of memories floating around in his head, they just need incentive to float up to the surface.

 

And  yeah, the memories are gathered from people entering through the ToG, which was far more known back in the days.

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One explanation (that does make a lot of sense) could be that it takes something extra for an experience to become a part of the Finns memory collection. Sipping on a cup of tea a rainy thursday afternoon does not quite make the cut, fighting for your life does. If the Eelfinn wants emotions and sensations, like the Selfinn, they probably want something stronger than 'content'. Obviously, fighting for your life would register. As would (for most blokes anyway) dancing with a lovely lass.

Also, most of the time, the memories that floats up in Mats mind are ones that fits the situation he is in, so there could be a lot of other kinds of memories floating around in his head, they just need incentive to float up to the surface.

 

I'd dismiss this for one glaring reason. Mat's memories give him language, complete with accent and idiom. I'm not referring to a common phrase but a complete vocabulary for fluent speech. While language is an important part of one's identity, I'd have to say that every word wouldn't draw forth that "something more". I think it's likely that Mat's head has been stuffed full of all kinds of entirely meaningless memories in addition to useful ones.

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I'd dismiss this for one glaring reason. Mat's memories give him language, complete with accent and idiom. I'm not referring to a common phrase but a complete vocabulary for fluent speech. While language is an important part of one's identity, I'd have to say that every word wouldn't draw forth that "something more". I think it's likely that Mat's head has been stuffed full of all kinds of entirely meaningless memories in addition to useful ones.

 

Possible, but why not the language in which the memory is "recorded" for want of a better term. Surely the memory would not be "translated" ?

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Surely the memory would not be "translated" ?

 

You know... I'm not sure this ISN'T true. First, it assumes that language is the same thing for each person, but that's a matter of neurology... I will say for SURE that my wife and I think differently... to her, she DOES think in words, to me, it's concepts and visualization. When I speak, I need to translate from "mindwords" to vocal words. She doesn't. So assuming "language" is one thing in a mind to the Finn might be false at it's face.

 

That said... it MIGHT be an interesting twist... What if the "what you get isn't what you asked for" is the result of horrible mistranslation as a result of incomplete language grabs? :P

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One explanation (that does make a lot of sense) could be that it takes something extra for an experience to become a part of the Finns memory collection. Sipping on a cup of tea a rainy thursday afternoon does not quite make the cut, fighting for your life does. If the Eelfinn wants emotions and sensations, like the Selfinn, they probably want something stronger than 'content'. Obviously, fighting for your life would register. As would (for most blokes anyway) dancing with a lovely lass.

Also, most of the time, the memories that floats up in Mats mind are ones that fits the situation he is in, so there could be a lot of other kinds of memories floating around in his head, they just need incentive to float up to the surface.

 

I'd dismiss this for one glaring reason. Mat's memories give him language, complete with accent and idiom. I'm not referring to a common phrase but a complete vocabulary for fluent speech. While language is an important part of one's identity, I'd have to say that every word wouldn't draw forth that "something more". I think it's likely that Mat's head has been stuffed full of all kinds of entirely meaningless memories in addition to useful ones.

 

Well, that would depend on hpow the memories are "recorded". It might be that the Eelfinn can not filter out undesired information, so they get the complete memory. Compare it to a computer file. If you start removing bits and pieces, you corrupt the information. And while it is possible to restore the information sometimes if you know what you are doing, why take the risk?

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i think they just shoved whatever memory that got into mat's head easiest into him.

 

imagine mat's head here, and a whole pool of of memories over here.

 

the ones most attracted to mat's head, get into his head first.

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One explanation (that does make a lot of sense) could be that it takes something extra for an experience to become a part of the Finns memory collection. Sipping on a cup of tea a rainy thursday afternoon does not quite make the cut, fighting for your life does. If the Eelfinn wants emotions and sensations, like the Selfinn, they probably want something stronger than 'content'. Obviously, fighting for your life would register. As would (for most blokes anyway) dancing with a lovely lass.

Also, most of the time, the memories that floats up in Mats mind are ones that fits the situation he is in, so there could be a lot of other kinds of memories floating around in his head, they just need incentive to float up to the surface.

 

And  yeah, the memories are gathered from people entering through the ToG, which was far more known back in the days.

 

This is more consistent with what I believe.  I agree that they have access to and / or collect all the feelings & memories of those who walk through the doorways and those who enter the ToG.  However, instead of filtering what they "collect", I think they conscientiously were a little selective when they "filled" the holes in Matt's head.  From Thus Spake the Creator:

 

Q: What exactly are Mats memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren??

 

A: mat' memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men. (emphasis mine)

 

Seems like there was a choice.  Were the memories they infused just random?  Were they due to Matt's role in the pattern, his destiny?  Were the Ael/Eel trying to help the Light side? 

 

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One explanation (that does make a lot of sense) could be that it takes something extra for an experience to become a part of the Finns memory collection. Sipping on a cup of tea a rainy thursday afternoon does not quite make the cut, fighting for your life does. If the Eelfinn wants emotions and sensations, like the Selfinn, they probably want something stronger than 'content'. Obviously, fighting for your life would register. As would (for most blokes anyway) dancing with a lovely lass.

Also, most of the time, the memories that floats up in Mats mind are ones that fits the situation he is in, so there could be a lot of other kinds of memories floating around in his head, they just need incentive to float up to the surface.

 

And  yeah, the memories are gathered from people entering through the ToG, which was far more known back in the days.

 

This is more consistent with what I believe.  I agree that they have access to and / or collect all the feelings & memories of those who walk through the doorways and those who enter the ToG.  However, instead of filtering what they "collect", I think they conscientiously were a little selective when they "filled" the holes in Matt's head.  From Thus Spake the Creator:

 

Q: What exactly are Mats memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren??

 

A: mat' memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men. (emphasis mine)

 

Seems like there was a choice.  Were the memories they infused just random?  Were they due to Matt's role in the pattern, his destiny?  Were the Ael/Eel trying to help the Light side? 

 

 

I believe they gave him the memories they had at their disposal. As Mr. Jordan said, only the bravest men and hardy military leaders would have the courage to go into another world/dimension. Those were the memories the Finns had.

 

However, that begs another question. In the first doorway, they called Mat the "son of battles." Did they know their "cousins" were going to give him the memories in the future?

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However, that begs another question. In the first doorway, they called Mat the "son of battles." Did they know their "cousins" were going to give him the memories in the future?

"Son of Battles"

"Luckster"

"Gambler"

 

 

It was Trickster, not Luckster. Mat was a trickster from day one. These names are why I think the Finns definitely did NOT just give him any old memory they had lying about. Take note that he has memories of dancing, of tavern songs and whatnot. The sort of memories a gambler would have, not just what the Son of Battles is relevant to.

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However, that begs another question. In the first doorway, they called Mat the "son of battles." Did they know their "cousins" were going to give him the memories in the future?

"Son of Battles"

"Luckster"

"Gambler"

 

 

It was Trickster, not Luckster. Mat was a trickster from day one. These names are why I think the Finns definitely did NOT just give him any old memory they had lying about. Take note that he has memories of dancing, of tavern songs and whatnot. The sort of memories a gambler would have, not just what the Son of Battles is relevant to.

ya but if you look at those titles he was all 3 in EF basically, thats his base personality, they knew what he was and what he was intended to be

the snakes knew he was going to get memories not what kind, they knew his fate was to go to Rhuidia?sp?,

the memories were those they had at hand, he just said he wanted the holes in his head filled, not any specific ones, and it so happens the ones at hand were warriors / adventures / soldiers / explorers ,the type of person RJ said would have entered ToG

dancing and the gambling those are things soldiers/ adventurers do on thier down time after they survived or before they go out on a mission/ adventure, never know if it'll be their last time, as u see the band does on the rare down times, in some cultures and even in modern time they would hold big parties and Balls before men were shipped off to war

the foxes are business men they have no care if Mat was important or not they left him hanging in a tree, business deal done, why would they pick and choose memories if he didn't specify it? that doesn't seem to be in their nature, just give him whats laying around

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I think Mat had talent for strategy even before the memories. That's why they call him "Son of Battles". RJ implied the Eelfinn just stuffed him with random memories.

 

But my question is, how big of a stretch is it that all the random memories the Finns had just happened to be relevant to the three titles they mentioned? I reckon the memories were filtered somehow. I myself dont think that every memory the Finns ever picked from people just happen to fit with Mats specific character image. We saw the Trickster and Gambler in Mat before he went to the Finns, and I personally doubt that they were storing memories waiting specifically for Mat to turn up. I think they can see glimpses of the Pattern, yes, but I also think they would give other people memories relevant to their own personality/destiny if they visited the Finns under the same circumstances as Mat ie holes in their memory, asked to have them filled and didnt name a price in return, etc. I really doubt that every single person who went into the ToG had lifestyles extremely similar to Mats; not every general is a party animal.

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