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Tamra lying in New Spring, i think


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While i reread "New Spring" i came upon a lie, atleast in my book (translated to norwegian) that may have been a mistake by the translator but still, I find that I should ask the question to the people that have read the book in English. And can check the exact line.

 

Just after Gitara died, Tamra said to Siuan and Moirane;

 

"If anyone askes what happend,"Gitara died without saying a word", or something close to that.

 

She clearly lied there. So i gotta ask Luckers or whoever thats sees this, did she indeed say that in the english version? And what does this signify? Or is it just a mistake by the translator?

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“Stay!” Tamra barked. That iron-hard gaze studied them both. “You will tell no one about this, not for any reason. If necessary, lie. Even to a sister. Gitara died without speaking. Do you understand me?”

 

It all depends on what Tamra intended with what she said. She evidently meant, "Say she died without saying a word" -- which is fine under the First Oath.

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It sounds more like she was instructing Moiraine and Siuan to lie, as in "[You will tell them] Gitara died without speaking", which works perfectly fine until such time as they take the Three Oaths upon being raised.

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Question: Quoting from Tamra in new spring, “You will tell no one about this, not for any reason, if necessary lie, even to a sister, Gitara died without speaking, do you understand me.” How is it that Tamra can tell Moiraine and Siuan that Gitara died without speaking, when she knows full well that she did speak.

 

Jordan: It’s simple. It is part of her instructions. There are a lot, thousands of loop holes, about that thou will speak no word that is not true. This is part of her instructions, she is telling them what they are to say. She is not saying something she believes, and thus she was able to say it.

 

http://nynaeve.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=books&action=

display&thread=95

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but the sentance"Gitara died without speaking" is a lie, even if she instructed them to speak it, so she shouldnt rly be able to say that sentance, but i suppose it can be one of those loopholes :p

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but the sentance"Gitara died without speaking" is a lie, even if she instructed them to speak it, so she shouldnt rly be able to say that sentance, but i suppose it can be one of those loopholes :p

 

Meh, the oath obviously goes by the whole of the sentence, or the thought behind it...

 

If someone said:

"I Am not sick in the head" - if extremely sick, but indeed, not insane, they would obviously be able to say that whole sentence..

 

if you understand what i'm saying, that is, lol

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but the sentance"Gitara died without speaking" is a lie, even if she instructed them to speak it, so she shouldnt rly be able to say that sentance, but i suppose it can be one of those loopholes :p

 

The key is in intention--what did Tamra intend Siuan and Moiraine understand from her comment. Did she mean them to think that Gitara died without speaking? No... they saw it, they knew, and there was no chance that they would mistake it.

 

RJ actually explained this aspect (I believe in reference to whether Siuan would be forced to actually skin Aes Sedai like fish if they failed to keep the Accepted Rings running during Egwene's test) saying that 'an Aes Sedai could sarcastically say that a white cloth was black, but not if, say, she was speaking to a blind person who might take the comment seriously'.

 

It's all about whether the Aes Sedai intended to deceive or not. Or whether she believed there was a possibility that the words might be taken at face value.

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It really depends on how the individual Aes Sedai interprets the Oaths herself. Most of them don't examine them in greater detail. I think Verin is an exception, however.

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Also, we need to remember that Siuan and Moiraine are still Accepted--they are perfectly capable of lying at this point. Tamra can BS her way around answering directly, but with Siuan and Moiraine's testamony saying Gitara said nothing, why would any Sisters doubt?

 

~Mashiara

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All good points..i think Mashiara sedai brings up the most clearly pertinent one though, imo, they are Accepted at this point in time and have not yet grasped the Oath Rod.

 

Its long been established as 100% undisputable that right up until you hold the Oath Rod and swear the Three Oaths you can still lie your head off if you wanted.

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well to be clear, i know moirane and siuan could still lie, it was the sentance where Tamra asked them to lie i had questions about since she kinda lied in the sentance, but apparently instructions works :p

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My fault...why did i think the question about the ability to lie was more on Mor and Siuan? Obviously Tamra is no accepted int hat scene...the only thing i can think of is what so many others mention...and that it is so hinges on the 'intentions' of the person making the statement..and maybe Tamra just felt so vitally inside her that lying about that would be serving a good purpose that she was able to wiggle around the inability to lie...thats a really interesting scene because of that now that you bring it up...

 

Fish

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Yeah, the Oaths inhibit by your intentions. I can beat you silly with the Power, but as long as I'm not intending to kill you, it's totally cool. Its the same thing here. Tamra didn't intend to mislead, so it didn't matter what she said.

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