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Siuan's Talent for seeing ta'veren


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I agree that the definition of Talent is a little confusing.  I tihnk a Talent is something that cannot be taught, you just can do it.  Like Elayne with making ter'angreal.  I don't think any Aes Sedai, even the strongest, could do it unless they had the Talent.  Traveling shouldn't be a Talent... any Aes Sedai could channel, and if they are not strong enought, then two can link to form the gateway.

 

I'd list Nynaeve's listening to the wind as a Talent.  Fortelling and Dreaming too, of course.  The making of cuendillar and angreals.  Seeing ta'veren.  I might be missing a few, but I can't think of any more.

 

I think most everything else can be taught so should not be listed as a Talent.

 

~Mashiara

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She's barely over 40 years old (right?).  I'm not sure that a ta'veren would have been around in her lifetime other than the three.

She did spend a lot of that time helping Moiraine keep the Black Ajah from hunting down men who were lucky because one of them might have been the Dragon Reborn. I don't think she spent all that time cooped up in the Tower. These were supposed to be men who could channel but perhaps one of them was ta'veren for a while.

 

 

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Gitara was not ta'veren, she was just an Aes Sedai who had the Fortelling.

 

I think Talents are Talents and unless they are specifically about strength (Traveling, for example is a Talent one needs strength for) then whether you're strong or not wouldn't affect the skill of your talent.

 

I've often thought about how one defines Talents though because of just that.

 

Why is Traveling a Talent rather than just something an Aes Sedai can do?  As opposed to a "talent" for Healing, or creating cuendillar, or creating ter'angreal.  These things are more skills/talents.  I've never understood why Traveling was considered a Talent I guess...are some Aes Sedai better at Traveling than others?  The only thing I can think of is that the size of the gateway defines the "skill" of the Talent for Traveling.

 

Compulsion I can see as a Talent in that one would need dexterious skill to manipulate a person's mind.  Liandrin vs. Graendal in Compulsion for example.

 

Traveling IS a talent. For example, Elayne and Aviendha are of the same strength, but Elayne can do it much better

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Aviendha suffers from channelers difficulties with learning to do things in a different way. She uses the weave Egwene discovered, which for Avi is her second weave for the same thing, as she did accidently make one herself. If she could remember the first weave, the one she came up with herself, she should be able to make a gateway the same size as Elayne, and anyone else that is about the same strength.

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I strongly suggest you get rid of that, because this is an argument you don't want to get into.
Why? Both parts of it are true.
No, the first part is, the second is very much disputed in many long-running arguments that never end well.

 

Leane shook her head. "No one has ever been healed from stilling before. Maybe the others will see it, say like being wilders. That puts you a little lower than your strength. Maybe having been weaker will count something. If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger."  Elayne stared, more confused than before.  Nynaeve looked as if she'd been hit between the eyes.

 

Getting up to half of what they were implies that they are currently less than half of what they were.

And if they were talking about social standing, not strength in the Power, that quote says far less than you think. Don't say you weren't warned. You can search for one of the old threads on the issue if you're a glutton for punishment.

 

Why is Traveling a Talent rather than just something an Aes Sedai can do?

Perhaps because the AS think it must have been a Talent, and so class it as such.
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Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger.

 

If she had said "but still most here would stand as high, and a good many higher" I would agree with you.  The two terms are not used interchangeably, at least as far as I can tell.  Leane speaks of strength here.  She wasn't asking Nynaeve to heal her social standing.

 

Even if she is talking about standing there, it STILL implies a massive loss of strength, unless their time being stilled counts against them far more than being a wilder would.  The first factor to determine the social standing is strength, other things being used to sort out those at the same level.  If they need more healing to even get half of that standing, they've probably lost more than half their strength.  My guess would be that they sit at one third of their original strength.  If they sit at one third, then Leane's initial desire to go to two thirds would take them halfway between where they currently stand, and where they used to be.  A reasonable request as far as she's concerned.

 

 

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She wasn't asking Nynaeve to heal her social standing.
Strength determines social standing, the two are interlinked. Being stronger would increase her social standing, so in effect that's exactly what she was asking. The main issue is that AS strengths are found over a fairly limited range, and if they lost that much there is a measure of doubt over whether or not they would still be strong enough to be AS - which they are, and not even the weakest. A dramatic loss of social standing would result from a far smaller loss of strength. Now, given that I was pointing out this was a contentius topic, it would be silly to now get embroiled in the topic that I was warning you against. There are plenty of other threads that discuss this, so try one of them if you want.
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I agree that the definition of Talent is a little confusing.  I tihnk a Talent is something that cannot be taught, you just can do it.  Like Elayne with making ter'angreal.  I don't think any Aes Sedai, even the strongest, could do it unless they had the Talent.  Traveling shouldn't be a Talent... any Aes Sedai could channel, and if they are not strong enought, then two can link to form the gateway.

 

I agree that the definition of Talent is confusing. Myself i think it should be divided into two. Talents--an innate ability, and Skills--a learned ability. Fortelling would be a Talent, Healing a skill.  Seeing ta'varen a Talent, the ability to find metals a skill.

 

The distinction in my mind is whether the ability stems from itself--foretelling, dreaming, so forth--or whether it is simply a particular proficiency in the use of the Power. I think the best point for this is Healing--Egwene cannot heal much more than a bruise, yet in other lives she could heal better than Nynaeve. This is apparently a learned skill--one which can be bound strongly by the laws of channeling--but still a learned skill.

If she had said "but still most here would stand as high, and a good many higher" I would agree with you.  The two terms are not used interchangeably, at least as far as I can tell.  Leane speaks of strength here.  She wasn't asking Nynaeve to heal her social standing.

 

The two are completely interchangeable. Strength equals standing. Standing equals strength. Oh, other things influence that but its a matter of greydation. The core is strength pure and simple. She was asking Nynaeve to heal her social standing AND her strength.

 

Even if she is talking about standing there, it STILL implies a massive loss of strength, unless their time being stilled counts against them far more than being a wilder would.  The first factor to determine the social standing is strength, other things being used to sort out those at the same level.  If they need more healing to even get half of that standing, they've probably lost more than half their strength.  My guess would be that they sit at one third of their original strength.  If they sit at one third, then Leane's initial desire to go to two thirds would take them halfway between where they currently stand, and where they used to be.  A reasonable request as far as she's concerned.

 

They can't have lost more than half their strength--its theoretically impossible. They still stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point, which is around the 38 out of 100 (as per RJ's comments).  Even being generous i dont see how you could put their original strength above 65 out of 100.

 

What you are missing is that the social standing covers the Aes Sedai range of strengths, not the full range of strengths. Aes Sedai exclude women below a certain strength (38 out of 100) and due to their lax recruitment they only have women of a certain strength. In effect their strength strata covers maybe 25% of the the full strength distribution.

 

So, your comment that "Even if she is talking about standing there, it STILL implies a massive loss of strength" is not true. A small change in strength equal a comparitively large change in social standing. At a rate of about 1:4 in point of fact.

 

Siuan says that if she could regain a third of what she was most would be as strong, and many stronger. She was speaking of her current strength (post healing) compared to her original, and she was speaking within the limited strengths of the Aes Sedai.

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It'd make sense for a AS to be healed to only half strength if she was healed by an AS, but to full strength if healed by an Ashaman. My reasoning being that maybe it's one of those things that required both halves of the Power to do completely.

 

One example of course is Logain. What about the AS Rand captured and later healed? Were they back to full strength? I can't remember...

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It'd make sense for a AS to be healed to only half strength if she was healed by an AS, but to full strength if healed by an Ashaman. My reasoning being that maybe it's one of those things that required both halves of the Power to do completely.

 

One example of course is Logain. What about the AS Rand captured and later healed? Were they back to full strength? I can't remember...

RJ has stated that to be Healed all the way, you do need to be Healed by the other gender. Women Healed by men, men Healed by women. However, it is still not half of their strength lost.
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Before stilling Suine had the strength to pick Gareth Bryne and several times his weight.  After she was heeled she could barely left him aenough to just make hime feel lighter.  She would have gotten better results if she tried to lift him without the power.

 

To go from being able to lift over a thousand pounds to being able to lift less then a 100 sounds to me like losing more then half your strength.

 

If you doupt this assessment look it up yourself in LoC right after Suin gets healed and Gareth gives her grief about his shirts.

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Before stilling Suine had the strength to pick Gareth Bryne and several times his weight.
Three times her own weight. And he would be a fair bit heavier than her. Not one thousand pounds to less than a hundred.
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To go from being able to lift over a thousand pounds to being able to lift less then a 100 sounds to me like losing more then half your strength.

That's all assuming that the relationship between the two is linear - but we don't know that.

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I tihnk a Talent is something that cannot be taught, you just can do it.  Like Elayne with making ter'angreal. 

 

I can't remember the exact wording or placing but I seem to remember some of the forsaken saying Elayne's ter'angreals are no better than an apprentice's, this would seem to indicate that their making is something that can be improved and thus is, at least in part,a skill. What is uncertain is whether it is a skill or a Talent to make them at all, as Elayne is the only one out of hundreds of AS to be able to make them, it is likely to be a Talent. This indicates that the production of ter'angreal and presumable, angreal and sa'angreal, occupy a grey area between Talent and skill.

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going back to the female characters being Ta'veren.

 

if i remember correctly, in the glossary in one of the earlier books, it stated that there was a talent that simulated the effects of Ta'veren but to a much lesser effect. This talent however was considered a long lost since the first age. 

 

so it could be possible that some the main female characters have this talent (they would have to be channelers since it is a talent and not the real thing). This could explain why Siun could not "see" them and why some of the girls have favorable, but not completely crazy good, outcomes. 

 

can anyone confirm the "Ta'veren talent". It should be in the glossary in some of the earlier books. I would do it myself but the only WoT book i have with me is Path of Daggers. im 65% sure that this talent was mentioned in the glossary and 35% sure that my mind is just playing games with me. :o

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going back to the female characters being Ta'veren.

 

if i remember correctly, in the glossary in one of the earlier books, it stated that there was a talent that simulated the effects of Ta'veren but to a much lesser effect. This talent however was considered a long lost since the first age.  

 

so it could be possible that some the main female characters have this talent (they would have to be channelers since it is a talent and not the real thing). This could explain why Siun could not "see" them and why some of the girls have favorable, but not completely crazy good, outcomes. 

 

can anyone confirm the "Ta'veren talent". It should be in the glossary in some of the earlier books. I would do it myself but the only WoT book i have with me is Path of Daggers. im 65% sure that this talent was mentioned in the glossary and 35% sure that my mind is just playing games with me. :o

 

The Talent for creating the ta'veren effect in a small area does exist, and it hasn't been lost or anything like that--its just very rare.

 

That being said the Talent uses the power to reproduce the effects of a ta'veren, and we would have seen if someone had employed it. So no, none of the characters have this talent.

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ahh ok

so the talent, is a weave.

i thought the talent was something innate, liking Siun seeing ta'veren.

 

hmm i wonder why RJ never incorporated this weave into the story, although i would assume that this weave would be immensely complicated

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It's also a talent, which means no matter the skill it requires a predisposition.

 

That being said there are lots of things referenced that are never use. Its part of what makes the world so diverse.

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