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bugsyhawk

Moriane's Role in the New Books

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In which case I still disagree with you about blaming the Finns for reducing her strength. She might has well been partially shielded the way she shielded Asmodean by Moridin to humble her.

 

I'm not saying its a definite but that there has to be some other explanation...

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So this is the most likely answer - Lanfear (and Moiraine) were burnt out by the doorway ter'angreal, and Cyndane was subsequently Healed. Not gaining Moiraine's strength, which is just absurd.
I don't buy it. Siuan/Leane state that they are at 1/3 their previous strength as a result of their healing. Following that rule of thumb would mean that Lanfear/Cyndane lost 2/3 of her strength but was STILL stronger than Graendal?
No, it wouldn't. As there are a lot of unknown variables that might affect the amount of strength lost, and the quote that says they lost that much strength is actually highly disputed.

 

In which case I still disagree with you about blaming the Finns for reducing her strength. She might has well been partially shielded the way she shielded Asmodean by Moridin to humble her.
Doubtful. After all, partially shielded she would still be as strong as she was, just unable to make use of some of her strength. I think it should still be possible to sense her full strength in the OP, rather than her reduced strength.

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Stilling doesn't always cause a loss of strength.
Only when Healed by someone of the same gender. The only thing we know of that can cause the drop of strength seen in Cyndane is being Healed by a woman. Therefore this is the most likely conclusion.
But she wasn't healed, her soul was transfered to a different body.
And then Healed.
Lanfear is in a different body, thus her ability to channel has been diminished.
Moridin, Aran'gar and Osan'gar all maintain the same strengths and Talents as they had in their original bodies. The only change we see in Cyndane is a loss of strength. Therefore it is unreasonable to conclude that a change of body results in a change of strength. Quite the reverse. While there is a genetic component to channeling, the evidence we have suggests that strength remains constant across the transmigratory process. Cyndane's loss of strength is an aberration, but given the likelihood of her being burnt out prior to her death - she was held prisoner by the Finns, and channeling would have helped her escape, and messing around with ter'angreal is known to be dangerous - it is therefore likely that she needed to be Healed by a woman, and thus lost strength as a result.

 

While all the evidence does indeed point in this direction I find it odd that something done to the soul in life would carry over in death and effect the next reincarnation. I assume that it was because of the unnatural way in which the Dark One resurrected her. Surely if someone is severed and they die and are naturally are born again they will be able to channel normally in their new incarnation without the need to be healed.

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No, it wouldn't. As there are a lot of unknown variables that might affect the amount of strength lost, and the quote that says they lost that much strength is actually highly disputed.

 

How do you figure? Its a direct quote from Siuan and Leanne on what their strength is now as to what it was before Stilling.  If we're gonna start throwing out direct observations of the character by the character in question, this debate becomes pointless.  You have Siuan, who knew exactly where she stood previously stating that her strength has been cut in half if not by 2/3.  It is ridiculous to claim that she wouldn't know exactly how much she lost or where her new place was in the Tower hierarchy which is based 100% on strength in the one power.

 

So Cyndane going from 21 to 20 on the OP scale is hardly the same as the massive drop indicative of being healed by the same sex channeler.

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While all the evidence does indeed point in this direction I find it odd that something done to the soul in life would carry over in death and effect the next reincarnation.
If one dies and is reborn as normal, then one begons ones next life as a blank slate. If one begons channeling, one does so from the beginning, weaker than their final strength. When one is transmigrated by Shai'tan, their memories, strength in the Power, everything, remains constant. So I think it is entirely reasonable that severing would remain constant as well.

 

I think the DO didn't let her have her full strength back to remind her that you betrayed me once don't do it again.
The mindtrap does that. By hindering her strength, He hurts Himself as well as her.

 

Its a direct quote from Siuan and Leanne on what their strength is now as to what it was before Stilling.
If only it was that simple. They are talking about strength and social standing. It has been argued, in many threads and at great length, that AS strength is over a small portion of the OP strength hierarchy, and therefore a dramatic loss of social standing can result from a not-so-dramatic loss of strength. Therefore that quote is not saying they have lost 2/3 of their strength. Don't bother posting the quote, as I'm well acquainted with it. Just search out one of the old debates, if you're interested.
the Tower hierarchy which is based 100% on strength in the one power.
No, it isn't.

 

So Cyndane going from 21 to 20 on the OP scale is hardly the same as the massive drop indicative of being healed by the same sex channeler.
Aside from us not knowing if such a massive drop did actually take place, you also fail to take into account whether or not the amount lost is always the same, whether it takes a certain percentage of your strength, x units of strength, a random amount, whether the amount can vary depending on refinements in the weave, etc. Without that, you cannot say that the loss is dissimilar, while the only thing comparable in nature (if not amount) to Cyndane's loss is that suffered by Siuan and Leane. Therefore, the evidence suggests she was severed and Healed by a woman.

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So your argument consists of ignoring quotes from the books and refusing to discuss it further?

 

the Tower hierarchy which is based 100% on strength in the one power.

 

No, it isn't.

 

Um, actually YES IT DOES.  Unless one is the Amyrlin, a Sitter, or Head of the Ajah, they determine everything by strength in the OP.  Only when it is too difficult to determine who is stronger do other things come into play as tiebreakers.  That's when they start figuring out who was a Novice and Accepted less time, etc etc.  To ignore that fact to try and further a weak argument in asinine.

 

Aside from us not knowing if such a massive drop did actually take place, you also fail to take into account whether or not the amount lost is always the same, whether it takes a certain percentage of your strength, x units of strength, a random amount, whether the amount can vary depending on refinements in the weave, etc. Without that, you cannot say that the loss is dissimilar, while the only thing comparable in nature (if not amount) to Cyndane's loss is that suffered by Siuan and Leane. Therefore, the evidence suggests she was severed and Healed by a woman.

 

So while Siuan and Leanne describe the loss exactly the same way and amount, Cyndane's is of a different amount simply because it needs to be to fit your argument? Occam's Razor is weeping at this thought.

 

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I have one concern with this Lanfear-was-stilled theory.  Who was it that healed her?  Healing stilling wasn't exactly widespread knowledge when Cyndane stepped onto the scene.  Actually, I'm fairly sure she showed up before Nynaeve even made that discovery (but I may be wrong - it's been about a year since I read through the series).

 

Without at least a general idea of the answer to that question, the entire theory kind of falls apart.

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I have one concern with this Lanfear-was-stilled theory.  Who was it that healed her?  Healing stilling wasn't exactly widespread knowledge when Cyndane stepped onto the scene.  Actually, I'm fairly sure she showed up before Nynaeve even made that discovery (but I may be wrong - it's been about a year since I read through the series).

 

Without at least a general idea of the answer to that question, the entire theory kind of falls apart.

Nynaeve taught every yellow sister in Salidar how she did it and probably everyone else who was interested as well. We know Moghedien was there, but she wouldn't have had the chance to see how it was done. But what if one of those yellow sisters was BA and in contact with someone like Graendal, Semirhage or Messaana?

 

About losing strength after a same-sex healing. What if the loss is absolute? Let's say that with same-sex healing you lose 30 points of strength.

If Siuan and Leane's strength was about 45, then after the healing they would have been 15, losing 2/3 of their strength. Now, Lanfear was by far the strongest female channeler. If she was about 150, she would be 120 after the healing, losing 'only' 20%.

 

A really crazy theory, with close to nothing to base it on, but it does explain why Cyndane seems to have lost less.

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So your argument consists of ignoring quotes from the books and refusing to discuss it further?
No, my argument consists of telling you that that quote doesn't support your argument, and telling you to find one of the other threads where it has already been discussed at great length.

 

the Tower hierarchy which is based 100% on strength in the one power.
No, it isn't.
Um, actually YES IT DOES. Unless one is the Amyrlin, a Sitter, or Head of the Ajah, they determine everything by strength in the OP. Only when it is too difficult to determine who is stronger do other things come into play as tiebreakers.
You contradict yourself. If it is based solely on strength, then it wouldn't have other things even as tie-breakers. The mere fact that it does indicates that it is not based "100%" on strength, as you claimed. We are told that being a wilder puts you "a little lower than your strength". According to Leane in LoC 30, a chapter you should be familiar with because it is where we find the quote about strength. According to Siuan, right after that, "everything goes into it." Not purely strength, although that might be the primary determining factor.

 

So while Siuan and Leanne describe the loss exactly the same way and amount
Except, they don't. We do not have any confirmed statements about how much strength is lost from either, nor from Cyndane, so we do not know if they lost different amount, nor how much different. Nor do we know what mechanism determines the amount of strength lost, so we don't even know if their being a difference is even a relevant factor. Yet the loss of strength is alike in kind, if not amount, in all parties, and that is relevant.

 

Who was it that healed her?
Probably a BA from Salidar. After all, the Shadow can contact its agents there, and we know of at least one there, and the knowledge doesn't seem to be restricted, and they can Travel. It's really not that hard to see how it would be possible.

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You contradict yourself. If it is based solely on strength, then it wouldn't have other things even as tie-breakers. The mere fact that it does indicates that it is not based "100%" on strength, as you claimed. We are told that being a wilder puts you "a little lower than your strength". According to Leane in LoC 30, a chapter you should be familiar with because it is where we find the quote about strength. According to Siuan, right after that, "everything goes into it." Not purely strength, although that might be the primary determining factor.

 

That's like saying baseball records aren't based purely on wins and losses because in the event of a TIE, other things are used as tie-breakers.  Bottom line is that Strength in the OP is by far the most important factor in their hierarchy and it is what they use on a day to day basis to determine everything from serving each other tea to who takes charge in a meeting. 

 

Except, they don't. We do not have any confirmed statements about how much strength is lost from either, nor from Cyndane, so we do not know if they lost different amount, nor how much different. Nor do we know what mechanism determines the amount of strength lost, so we don't even know if their being a difference is even a relevant factor. Yet the loss of strength is alike in kind, if not amount, in all parties, and that is relevant.

 

We have Graendal's sense of Cyndane's strength and her comparison to Lanfear's strength in that she [Cyndane] is stronger than Graendal still but not at Lanfear's level.  So that is CONFIRMED.  We have a first hand comment from Siuan and Leanne concerning their drop in strength.  But again, you are clearly correct in that we have no confirmed statements.

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That's like saying baseball records aren't based purely on wins and losses because in the event of a TIE, other things are used as tie-breakers.
Then they're not based purely on wins and losses.
Bottom line is that Strength in the OP is by far the most important factor in their hierarchy
You didn't say most important, you said only. You were wrong.

 

We have Graendal's sense of Cyndane's strength and her comparison to Lanfear's strength in that she [Cyndane] is stronger than Graendal still but not at Lanfear's level. So that is CONFIRMED. We have a first hand comment from Siuan and Leanne concerning their drop in strength. But again, you are clearly correct in that we have no confirmed statements.
We have confirmation that they have lost strength, but not how much they have lost. Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear but stronger than Graendal...we don't know how much difference there is between Graendal and Lanfear. Thus we have no idea how much strength was lost. We know Siuan and Leane have lost strength, but we don't know how much. Because they don't tell us. So, as we don't know how much is lost in either case, nor how the strength loss is determined, we have nothing. Nothing except a similarity in kind.

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We have confirmation that they have lost strength, but not how much they have lost. Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear but stronger than Graendal...we don't know how much difference there is between Graendal and Lanfear. Thus we have no idea how much strength was lost. We know Siuan and Leane have lost strength, but we don't know how much. Because they don't tell us. So, as we don't know how much is lost in either case, nor how the strength loss is determined, we have nothing. Nothing except a similarity in kind.

 

So, I find it interesting that there is a lengthy debate about something that I am under the impression that RJ deliberately tried to avoid developing within the books.  I've seen a few quotes from him saying something to the effect of "no I won't tell you how many hit points Rand has" etc...

 

Personally, I'm going to side with Mr. Ares on this one.  I also like the previous suggestion that you lose a set amount of strength.

 

The notion that Cyndane was severed and healed is the most plausible, given that the knowledge of healing by both Male and Female channelers is known to the shadow (Damer and Nynaeve had known forsaken/BA in their midst).

 

43 Days!

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I find it interesting that there is a lengthy debate about something that I am under the impression that RJ deliberately tried to avoid developing within the books.
Just because RJ didn't spend a lot of time on it, doesn't mean fans won't spend endless hours arguing over it. People have tried to create lists to rank the Chosen in order of strength, or all the channelers, or just the women, despite gaps in our knowledge sometimes being quite big (for the Chosen, for example, we are told Ishamael is strongest, Aginor and Lanfear next, and that's it).

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I agree with Mr Ares on this theory. The most likely occurance is that Lanfear was severed/burned out on her way to finnland, or in it, and that she was healed when she came out. Even if she lost a significant portion of her power, she would still have ALOT, especially compared to what we have in randland today. But, I also don't think she lost 2/3rds. The evidence presented seems to make it a set amount. In Leane and Suian the difference in their original power levels is not much in the grand scheme of things, so they are most likely similar afterwords with a difference being hard to detect (between them that is). A fractional loss would indeed be harder to detect though. On the other hand though, Lanfear having a similar fractional loss would put her power level much lower in comparison to the original. She would be about as strong as an average AS, maybe a little lower. But losing static points prolly not. Lets look at it this way (just examples, not looking up the scale):

 

Suian and Leane: 10 originally

2/3 loss: 3.3

Static loss of 5: 5

 

Lanfear: 20

2/3 loss: 6.3

Static Loss of 5: 15

 

So thus, Lanfear would be very weak for a chosen, not worth the effort if it is a fractional loss large enough for it to put Suian and Leane below almost every AS at camp. More likely, it is a static loss. The static amout loss may fluctuate some, but is prolly pretty steady.

 

 

My big question here though, is what would happen if you severed a healed by same sex individual and then healed them with the opposite sex? Would they be restored to the original power level, or would being healed have made their connection to the true source "thicker". I'd better explain that. If you think of the connection like a pipe, with the OP going through it, the women healed have a thicker, or blocked pipe. It is still the same size, yet less gets through. Now, is this pipe blocked by crud that could be removed with another severing, or is it like when you healed them you put a real big metal patch in that cannot be removed? Sadly not enough evidence exists for any conclusion to be made, but it is something interesting to discuss.

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despite gaps in our knowledge sometimes being quite big (for the Chosen, for example, we are told Ishamael is strongest, Aginor and Lanfear next, and that's it).

 

We're told quite a bit more than that but whatever.  You won't agree anyway.

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The only source we have for ranking them is the BWB.

 

It says enough of the same things about both Aginor and Lanfear that the whole strength thing gets very confusing.

 

Aginor: "The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength."

 

Lanfear: "The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael was Lanfear, "Daughter of the Night" in the Old Tongue.

 

So take your pick.  Either could be second most powerful.  Or, neither.  The BWB could be entirely wrong regarding relative strengths.

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The only source we have for ranking them is the BWB.

 

It says enough of the same things about both Aginor and Lanfear that the whole strength thing gets very confusing.

 

Aginor: "The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength."

 

Lanfear: "The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael was Lanfear, "Daughter of the Night" in the Old Tongue.

 

So take your pick.  Either could be second most powerful.  Or, neither.  The BWB could be entirely wrong regarding relative strengths.

 

I'm pretty sure anyone who reads that can clearly see that Lanfear is the second most powerful FORSAKEN, and Aginor is the second most powerful MALE FORSAKEN, thus the third most powerful Forsaken overall. Though they may be too close to call.

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We also know that Demandred was "just below LTT" in everything including Channeling so he's most likely right around Aginor on that level below LTT & Ishamael who were considered equals in the OP.  There are tons of clues in the books on people's strengths so it is disingenious to say we don't know stuff like that.

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I find it interesting that there is a lengthy debate about something that I am under the impression that RJ deliberately tried to avoid developing within the books.
Just because RJ didn't spend a lot of time on it, doesn't mean fans won't spend endless hours arguing over it. People have tried to create lists to rank the Chosen in order of strength, or all the channelers, or just the women, despite gaps in our knowledge sometimes being quite big (for the Chosen, for example, we are told Ishamael is strongest, Aginor and Lanfear next, and that's it).

 

Mr. Ares, please note I spend a similar amount of time arguing about it as well :)

 

There are clues throughout the books about general strength for each of the Forsaken, however it is skewed because of the relative capacities for specific things; e.g. Semirhage is the most skilled healer and Aginor was very good with biology and genetics.

 

42.

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We also know that Demandred was "just below LTT" in everything including Channeling so he's most likely right around Aginor on that level below LTT & Ishamael who were considered equals in the OP.  There are tons of clues in the books on people's strengths so it is disingenious to say we don't know stuff like that.

 

I think that's as far as we can go with that.

 

LTT and Ishy were tied for top spot.

Lanfear is probably next

Aginor if he BWB is to be believed

 

Now after this point its up in the air. Eben Hopwil said that Sammael could hold as much as Rand, but clearly he was wrong. Similarly, Demandred was supposed to be just behind LTT in everything including OP strength. But this was from Messana (sp) who clearly wouldn't know about this stuff (at least first hand). Messena and Semi are about the same strength, but I believe they are behind Grendal but above Moggy. As for the guys, Demandred is proabably behind Aginor, but what abt Rahvin, Sam, Asmo, Belal etc.?

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despite gaps in our knowledge sometimes being quite big (for the Chosen, for example, we are told Ishamael is strongest, Aginor and Lanfear next, and that's it).
We're told quite a bit more than that but whatever.  You won't agree anyway.
Of ocurse I won't agree. I've actually looked at the evidence, and it's useless for any confirmed placements beyond those three. Just some guesses that are more educated than others.

 

i thought Lanfear was second...u sure its Aginor?

It's both. Toss up between the two, anyway.

 

There are clues throughout the books about general strength for each of the Forsaken, however it is skewed because of the relative capacities for specific things; e.g. Semirhage is the most skilled healer and Aginor was very good with biology and genetics.
Many things we are told aren't very good indicators of strength. We can't even trust their own estimations of strength in relation to one another, because they lie to themselves. Demandred is not far behind, but we don't know if he is really next after Aginor, or if someone else stands above him. Moggy, we have nothing on her strength, Graendal is stronger than most men, which tells us nothing of use. She's also weaker than Cyndane. We have nothing for Asmo, Be'lal, Sammael, Rahvin, Balthamel, or at best know them as "strong". Semi and Mesaana, so we are told, match well with one another "on most points", which isn't saying they are as strong, so we don't even know where they stand in relation to one another, let alone anyone else. The absolute best we can manage is a top four (Ish, Lan, Ag, Dem), but even that contains elements of speculation. People frequently put Moghedien and Aso near the bottom of strength lists, but that is based more on assessments of their character than their strength in the Power. They could be immensely strong cowards, after all. And as we don't know where they stand, we are left similarly clueless about where the good guys stand in relation to them - Nynaeve equal to or above Moggy, but is Moggy near the bottom, in the middle, next woman behind Lanfear? Is Cadsuane stronger than any Chosen? Is Sharina's potential as strong as it's possible for a woman to be? How about Alivia? Even ranking AS presents a few problems, as facotrs other than strength are taken into account as well, so a small measure of deference might indicate same strength with differences in time as Accepted, for example.

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