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I agree that it is likelier that Moraine was severed but I still think she is not. For instance, when Mat went through the door was gone and everything was kind of screwy, hallways changing, etc. Do we know for sure the doorway on the Finnland side is a ter'angreal, I mean couldn't it just be a door to them. I mean it's a ter'angreal on the Randland side but maybe it's not to the Finns. Also, couldn't the fact of the doorway on the Randland side be why Moraine's bond to Lan was cut, not her being severed.

 

I am MOT trying to start a flame war over this, I mean maybe it's wishful thinking but I don't think so. Yours thoughts please.

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Also, couldn't the fact of the doorway on the Randland side be why Moraine's bond to Lan was cut, not her being severed.

 

The existence of the bond doesn't seem to be affected by distance, and the ter'angreal doorway in Tear is still intact. Since the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn are in the same world, and that world is still connected to Randland by at least one doorway that we know can support the bond connection (Moiraine went through the doorway in Tear with no problems in the bond), then simply destroying the doorway seems unlikely to have broken the bond without burning Moiraine out.

 

I think that alot of people don't want to believe that Moiraine is burned out, because she's popular. Hey, I think she's great, one of the best developed characters, and one I would really like in person, if we could meet. But frankly, I think she knew she was going to be burned out, and did it anyway, which is incredibly admirable to me. Its one thing to be willing to die for something, its something even greater to be willing to strip your own defenses and put yourself into perhaps perpetual captivity for the same cause.

 

Being burned out fits all the facts we have, in a way that no other explanation does, to me. It explains:

 

1) Why Moiraine can't get out on her own.

 

2) Why the Eelfinn were able to hold Lanfear.

 

3) Why Lanfear's reincarnation is weaker in the power.

 

4) How Lan could have the "living death" syndrome without Moiraine actually being dead.

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I would agree that just passing through the doorway would not cut her bond to Lan. She passed into the doorway in Tear without alteration of the bond.

 

And I would assume for a sister to release the bond would require physical contact since the creation of the bond does.

 

There are also several examples of the sisters that were stilled at Dumai's Well during Rand's escape. The Warders of those sisters went crazy as if the sister had been killed. So we know that severing cuts the Warder bond as if the sister were killed.

 

With all the reinforcement of ter-angrels and the power causing people to be burnt out. I see it being highly likely that Moraine and Lanfear were both burnt out by going through the doorway.

 

The simplest explaination is often the correct one.

 

Nelm

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And, just to say also not to create an arguement- She knew what was going to happen that day because she went through the rings. Thats how she knew to place the terangreal where Lanfear could get it (c'mon- why on EARTH would she do it if she didnt have to? If she had kept it for herself, she could have quite possibly battled Lanfear herself along with Rand- She would have done it only because she knew she had to), when to write the letters, how she knew what to send Thom.

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If they were both burnt out as they went through the rings it would have made for one heck of a cat fight on the far side!

 

In this corner...

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She knew no such thing, we know no such thing. On what basis to do claim that Moraine knew that she was going to be burned out, let alone that she has been burned out?

 

You have to follow my reasoning here.

 

We know Moiraine knew she would survive her encounter with Lanfear. That she would be trapped in Finnland. That Mat and Thom and one other would have to rescue her. We also know that she knew everyone would believe her dead. Her letter to Thom stands as proof of her knowing all these things before she faced Lanfear on the docks.

 

Now, WHY would she embrace Saidar before tackling Lanfear and falling through the ter'Angreal? She already knew she would survive. She knew she was no match for Lanfear in power. So, she probably didn't embrace Saidar to survive, she probably didn't do it for combat. WHY?

So she would be stilled, Lan's bond would pass to Myrelle and therefore he would not die trying to avenge her.

My hypothesis is that she embraced Saidar knowing that she would be stilled and that the stilling would save the life of her warder.

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LANFEAR was not stilled, the DO does not know how to restore the ability to channel Saidar or Saiden ,,, Nynave discovered the healing of Severing and Gentling and stilling,,, even the Forsaken had never heard of such a thing , to them it was impossibile to do just like restoring a severed hand,,, :wink: ,,, so if LANFEAR was not Stilled why would Moraine have been Stilled,,, if Lanfear had been stilled she would not have the ability to channel as Cyndane because the DO can not heal Stilling and the ability is directly linked to the SOUL of a person the body has to also be geneticaly predisposed to channeling but the SOUL is where the Connection to the source takes place ...

as for Lanfear having to have died for the DO to take her SOUL and place it into the body of someone else,,, BS or Hogwash , whichever , Lanfear's soul belongs to the DO and he has the power to rip it out of her body and do what he wants to do with it ...

 

More than likely the DO took her (Lanfear's) soul out of her body because he could not get her body out of the land of the Eelfinn ,,, also has anyone realized that the DO always knows what his Forsaken are doing because he can see with their eyes and hear with their ears and read their thoughts all the time,,, just like with crows and rats...

 

as for Lan's bond to Moraine being severed,,, yes ,,, so it was ,,, but not because MORAINE was severed or stilled,,, the bond was broken because the LINK between RANDLAND and the land of the Eelfinn was destroyed cataclismacly(spelling-so what) the Twisted Doorways leading to the Land of the Aelfinn and the one leading to the Land of the Eelfinn are not the same doorways, they are not linked to the same lands and deminsions and they are not GATEWAYs , you don't step thru like going from one room to another, your body is transported to the otherside,,, why do you people want to keep describing the Lands and Deminsions of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn as the same as tho they were like Camlin and Tear, they are not the same, the Demision they are in is radicaly different with different laws of reality,,, so yes loosing the direct link thru the orriginal device that transported her (Moraine) to the Eelfinn would severe the Warder Bond (with Lan) because as far as the Bond is concerned she was dead or stilled ,,, but she (Moraine) was not stilled and is obviosly not dead...

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The theory that it was the link to Finns being destroyed makes no sense. We know there is a alternate way to this world through the tower out by Whitebridge (don't remember the name). For it to be the link to that world causing the issue. All links to that would would need to be destroyed.

 

*editted to add*

 

We also know that Aes Sedi are taught that messing with ter-angrels while holding the source can not only still them but others around them. Maybe she knew that when holding the sorce and tackling her through. We don't know fully what she saw while in the rings. She could have even seen that she would eventually be restored from being severed.

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Couple things crazymike:

the DO always knows what his Forsaken are doing because he can see with their eyes and hear with their ears and read their thoughts all the time,,, just like with crows and rats...

 

Not sure where but i seem to remember it being stated that rats and crows need to report what they see to a Myrdraal. One of the boys asks Morraine IIRC correctly if the DO sees what the rats see directly and she says no and is terrified of the possibility.

 

if Lanfear had been stilled she would not have the ability to channel as Cyndane because the DO can not heal Stilling

 

I agree that the DO and the forsaken do not know how to heal severing right now but i disagree that Cyndane channeling proves that Lanfear was not severed. As i mentioned in another thread, Aginor burnt himself to a cinder by overdrawing on the OP (as LTT did). We know that overdrawing on the OP can burn out a channeler. No one would mention that if you literally burnt up first. Seems obvious that Aginor would have burnt out his ability to channel before going up in smoke but s/he channels just fine as Halima. I think any severing that occured to Lanfear would have been "reset" when she was reborn as Cyndane.

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First of all, let me point out that I do not claim to know wether Moraine got stilled or not. If she did get burned out, then it does explain why her bond with Lan was broken. I was and am only pointing out that we really do not have enough information to make any provable claims, including the claim that Moraine was stilled for sure.

 

If she knew in advance that going through the doorframe, while embracing the source, with an agreal meant stilling for sure, then why didn't she just push Lanfear through? Even if it were pre-ordained that she fall through as well, why would she sacrifice the ability that means more to a channeler than life, to no good purpose? If Moraine knew that a trip through the doorway, while channeling, meant stilling for sure, then she would also know that the same effects would hold true for Lanfear. That in and of itself would seem to suggest that Moraine did not completely know her fate after the being captured.

 

Secondly, we do not know enough about the doorways to assume anything about how their connection works. If you imagine the the doorway connection disolving like a gateway snapping shut, it is easy to imagine a bond being cut by the melting doorway. Rand managed to cut the black wires going to the DO in TEotW didn't he? Yes, Moraine's stilling does explain the breaking of Lan's bond, but it is not the ONLY explaination.

 

One last point. The forsaken did not know how to heal stilling, howeverevery yellow sister in Salidar did. If even one of these yelows was BA, it stands to reason that they could either heal Cyandane, of have taught one of the female forsaken how to.

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Lanfear was not holding the angreal going through the doorway. RJ said quite clearly that Moiraine "clawed" the bracelet from her as they were going through.

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In regards to CrazyMike's assertions about the DO, I think you are making quite a lot of leaps and false assumptions.

 

1. Just because we don't know that the GL has ever healed the ability of a severed Chosen doesn't mean he hasn't. Likewise, even if he hasn't, it doesn't mean he doesn't know how to do it, either directly or through human proxy. I doubt in all the turnings of the wheel that in this age both a woman and then later a man were the first to ever discover the severing can be healed. Thus if any of those had ever been friends of the dark, they may have passed along that info, and I am guessing the big guy has quite the memory.

 

If I am missing some quotes that support your theories I would be interested to read them.

 

2. Does it ever say in the books or in Jordan's Q & A's the GL sees directly through the Chosen's eyes, or reads their thoughts, etc? I think when they are in the pit of doom he has more access to their direct emotions and thoughts, but I don't think they are like mobile eyes/ears for him. If so, Lanfear's treachey would have been exposed and punished long before she failed in FOH(though I also think part of her punishment was because she tried to kill the dragon reborn which was against standing orders).

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If she knew in advance that going through the doorframe, while embracing the source, with an agreal meant stilling for sure, then why didn't she just push Lanfear through? Even if it were pre-ordained that she fall through as well, why would she sacrifice the ability that means more to a channeler than life, to no good purpose?

 

Because Moraine is hardcore enough to sacrifice her channeling or even her life if it means Rand will have a chance to win at the last battle.

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BetrayerofHope: I think that I read a quote somewhere, but I forget where, that your namesake, Ishamael, later Moridin, personally I prefer calling him Ishamael even after he is reincarnated. I think the True Power subsumes the users will to Shai'tan. I think I am right but I could be wrong, but I never have yet :lol:

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I do not doubt that Moraine would have given up her ability to channel, in order to see Rand succeed, I just do not see any proof that MOraine felt that she had to give up her power to channel, and/or that she chose to do such a thing with foreknowledge of events.

 

Yes, she knew somethings that must happen, we don't know how much she knew, we do not know what did in fact happen.

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Its entirely possible she didn't realise she would be severed, or that she also foresaw herself being healed... conjecture on that is rather pointless at this stage.

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She did what she did because it was the only way she had the smallest chance to survive - the small bubble of hope.

I don't think it was an issue for her what actually happened when she went through, at least she had the faint possibility of surviving it.

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I agree that Moraine would have done the deed and made the effort to kill Lanfear reguardless of the consequences to herself even stilling would not have detered her or given her much pause, to Moraine Lanfears Death was absolutely necesary to protect Rand and more importantly win the last battle,,,

 

HOWEVER ,,,

 

There is still no reason to believe that Moraine was stilled or burntout by the destruction of the Twisted Doorway ,,, her being prisoner of the Eelfinn (foxxy guys) is not an indication and she could be a prisoner simply because she has refused to make any demands of them as of yet, waiting for her rescue to take place, in that case she would simply be bidding her time eating cookies and drinking tea until the right moment...

 

but that is only a possibility and there are many reasons why she may be a Prisoner of the Eelfinn ...

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Thank you luckers, my point exactly, we don't know nearly enough to speculate.

 

I do find it funny however, that people will point out how smart various characters are, when they want them to make a leap of logic that supports their point, but refuse to acknowledge the same when it does not.

 

If Moraine is so smart and intuitive that she can glean the exact meanings of her exerpiences inside of an ancient ter' angreal, why didn't she figure out that the aiel were the people of the dragon, or that rousing the spears to war once more meant a trip to Rhuidean not a war with Illian, or that Perrin was the wolfking, or that Mat was going to blow the horn of valere, or, or, or.......

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