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Ziggdiezan

Is Mat tied to the wheel

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At the end of Eye of the world im gonna quote something exactly "'He guides us.' the  hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with kunckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "an old thing, an old friend, and old enemy. but he is not the one we week"

 

I know they followed mat by the taint in the dagger. Are they talking about Mordeth when they say old friend? Or are they saying mat like Rand has be reborn many times through the ages?

 

Thanks

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I personally think he is, no evidence to support it in the books but I do believe he is tied to the Wheel.

 

Going on the idea that Rand is the 3rd Age's Jesus (same soul) it isn't a far leap to notice the similarities between Perrin and Mat sounding a lot like Peter and Matthew.

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I'm not too sure. When Mat sounds the horn, all the heroes know Rand/LTT, but they don't know Mat. On the other hand, if all the heroes tied to the wheel are spun out again and again then it would imply that normal people aren't spun out over and over. Seeing as Mat can remember parts of many past lives, i should think he is tied to the wheel in some way. In TGH Artur Hawkwing says to Rand:

"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more."

I can recall Mat saying much the same later in the series, something about fighting with and against Artur Hawkwing many times. 

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It was actually 'guided' instead of 'guides' and 'seek' instead of 'week'.

Mordeth was probably what he was talking about.

 

Mat I think was not bound to the wheel before he blew the Horn; though he might have became so when he blew the Horn.

The Heroes called Rand by "Lews Therin"; if any of the others were bound to the wheel, the Heroes I think would have recognized them as some past life also.

 

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Just because the heroes didn't stop to talk to Mat doesn't mean the didn't know him. Rand was the center of the attention and they had work to do. There wasn't necessarily time to pour cocktails and catch up with everybody about what they'd been up to in their most recent incarnation.

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After this life he may be, but I don't think that Mat was tied to the Wheel before it. 

I am very sure that Aginor is refering to Mordeth.  The evil that he created in Shadar Logoth is old and something that corrupts as much as that city does would be a friend to evil people as well as an enemy since the evil was directed to the Shadow. 

 

Most of the "extra" memories Mat has come from the Finns, with maybe a couple from the "Old Blood".  And Birgitte says that when she is born normally she doesn't remember who she is anyways. 

 

The main reason I don't think that Mat is tied to the Wheel is that Birgitte would know him as whatever Hero he would be and yet she only shows that she remembers him as the Sounder of the Horn.  I suppose she could remember and keep it from everyone, but she slips so often by saying things that she shouldn't know about, that I think she would slip on that too. 

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The main reason I don't think that Mat is tied to the Wheel is that Birgitte would know him as whatever Hero he would be and yet she only shows that she remembers him as the Sounder of the Horn.   I suppose she could remember and keep it from everyone, but she slips so often by saying things that she shouldn't know about, that I think she would slip on that too. 

Ah, yes, point taken. Birgitte has had time to pour many a cocktail and chit-chat late into the night with Mat.

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Just because the heroes didn't stop to talk to Mat doesn't mean the didn't know him. Rand was the center of the attention and they had work to do. There wasn't necessarily time to pour cocktails and catch up with everybody about what they'd been up to in their most recent incarnation.

The Heroes addressed Mat as "Trumpeter" and Perrin as "Bannerman".  The Heroes probably would have added some specific names after those titles if they (the Heroes) knew them (Mat & Perrin).

 

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Well the finns gave him memories back right, aren't those memories of his past lives? If they are memories of lives he has lived, then he must indeed be tied to the wheel. If he is not tied to the wheel, then that means that normal people can be spun out any number of times and live many lives and then what would be the point of the heroes? They would be the same as everyone else.

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I think everyone is spun out numerous times... When Heroes are spun out they may just happen to be some sort of "Hero" every time they come back.

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Those memories are memories of men whom have gone through the Finn Doorways before, not from Mats own past lives.

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Well the finns gave him memories back right, aren't those memories of his past lives? If they are memories of lives he has lived, then he must indeed be tied to the wheel. If he is not tied to the wheel, then that means that normal people can be spun out any number of times and live many lives and then what would be the point of the heroes? They would be the same as everyone else.

No, the memories are the memories of others who have come to visit the 'Finns in the past. One or both groups of 'Finns watches and records what happens in the world through the eyes of those who have visited them. Kind of creeps Mat out when he figures out what's going on.

 

As I understand Randlandian theology, ordinary people do live multiple lives as the Wheel turns but they have a different personality and different place in the pattern each time they are reborn. The point of tying the heroes to the wheel, keeping them in TAR in between lives, and spinning them out again when the situation warrants it is that the heroes' personalities and purposes in the pattern remain the same. Master Norry may be a Tairen fisherman, a Seanchan high lord or hunter/gatherer on the Isle of Madmen next time he's born. Birgitte, Hawkwing, and Lews Therin will have different name each time they're born and other details will be different but, at the end of the day/lifetime, they'll still be Birgitte, Hawkwing, and Lews Therin.

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Are they talking about Mordeth when they say old friend?
No. Mordeth wasn't at the Eye, he was at Fal Dara.

 

Well the finns gave him memories back right, aren't those memories of his past lives?
No. Those are the memories of people who went through the Tower/Doorway to see the Finns.
If he is not tied to the wheel, then that means that normal people can be spun out any number of times and live many lives and then what would be the point of the heroes?
The Heroes are part of the Pattern's self-correcting mechanisms. If the weave starts to drift, it weaves out a Hero. Everyone else lives multiple lives. Just not for any specific purpose.

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Mordeth was with Mat because of the dagger's taint, Fain is at Fal Dara? Also they cant be Mat's past lives because some on the lives overlap.

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Well the finns gave him memories back right, aren't those memories of his past lives? If they are memories of lives he has lived, then he must indeed be tied to the wheel.

Not all the memories would be from past lives; a number of the memories overlap with the lives of others.

And the books tell that everyone becomes reborn.

 

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I dont know if Mat was tied to the wheel before his new life but I know he is now.

 

 

I am basing that purely on the fact that Mat is amazing

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Mordeth was with Mat because of the dagger's taint, Fain is at Fal Dara?
No, Mordeth is a wholly separate entity to the Taint. Mordeth was the last survivor of Shadar Logoth, and he merged with Fain but was unable to take him over. Eventually they settled into one very crazy man. Fain/Mordeth was at Fal Dara, the dagger was with Mat.

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Mordeth was with Mat because of the dagger's taint, Fain is at Fal Dara?
No, Mordeth is a wholly separate entity to the Taint. Mordeth was the last survivor of Shadar Logoth, and he merged with Fain but was unable to take him over. Eventually they settled into one very crazy man. Fain/Mordeth was at Fal Dara, the dagger was with Mat.

You may have a point that it was Mordeth's evil that Aginor was refering to rather than Mordeth himself.  I tend to think of them as the same though because Fain thinks of the evil in the dagger as being part of himself and making him complete. 

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Mordeth was with Mat because of the dagger's taint, Fain is at Fal Dara?
No, Mordeth is a wholly separate entity to the Taint. Mordeth was the last survivor of Shadar Logoth, and he merged with Fain but was unable to take him over. Eventually they settled into one very crazy man. Fain/Mordeth was at Fal Dara, the dagger was with Mat.

You may have a point that it was Mordeth's evil that Aginor was refering to rather than Mordeth himself.  I tend to think of them as the same though because Fain thinks of the evil in the dagger as being part of himself and making him complete. 

 

Actually at that time in the story Fain was at Fal Dara but had not touched the dagger yet to start the merging process with Mordeth. Unless Fain had also taken something from Shadar Logoth to become "infected" as the Aes Sedai put it. Matt still has the dagger at this point as he has not been fully healed, only partially by Mor. in Camelyn.

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Just because the heroes didn't stop to talk to Mat doesn't mean the didn't know him. Rand was the center of the attention and they had work to do. There wasn't necessarily time to pour cocktails and catch up with everybody about what they'd been up to in their most recent incarnation.

The Heroes addressed Mat as "Trumpeter" and Perrin as "Bannerman".  The Heroes probably would have added some specific names after those titles if they (the Heroes) knew them (Mat & Perrin).

 

Not if they're constantly reborn to be the "Trumpeter" and the "Bannerman".

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Just because the heroes didn't stop to talk to Mat doesn't mean the didn't know him. Rand was the center of the attention and they had work to do. There wasn't necessarily time to pour cocktails and catch up with everybody about what they'd been up to in their most recent incarnation.

The Heroes addressed Mat as "Trumpeter" and Perrin as "Bannerman".  The Heroes probably would have added some specific names after those titles if they (the Heroes) knew them (Mat & Perrin).

 

Not if they're constantly reborn to be the "Trumpeter" and the "Bannerman".

 

I would like to point out that that could be important. Also, we have to remember that the Forsaken are crazy awesome, and from Ishamael (and Hawkwing) we do know that even heroes can fight eachother, fight LTT/Rand even. To me, it's always seemed like Mat and Rand are linked, not just the way Mat, Rand, and Perrin are, but beyond that. Mat and Rand are both intensely lucky and LTT "minted his own luck", LTT was a great general and channeler, and well basically, Perrin IS important, but at least in this life, Mat and Rand are both going to be key to the Light as LTT was in the previous age. I mean, it does make sense, Rand has to learn to channel, help rule the world and get everything back together, not very likely he would survive that plus what Mat has had to do at 20 years of age.

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Just because the heroes didn't stop to talk to Mat doesn't mean the didn't know him. Rand was the center of the attention and they had work to do. There wasn't necessarily time to pour cocktails and catch up with everybody about what they'd been up to in their most recent incarnation.

The Heroes addressed Mat as "Trumpeter" and Perrin as "Bannerman".  The Heroes probably would have added some specific names after those titles if they (the Heroes) knew them (Mat & Perrin).

Not if they're constantly reborn to be the "Trumpeter" and the "Bannerman".

Trumpeter & Bannerman seem to be no more than titles; "the Trumpeter" & "the Bannerman" would also be just titles.

At least two Heroes have titles, both of those have specific names.  ("the Chooser" is "Calian the Chooser", not just "the Chooser"; "the Hunter" is "Shivan the Hunter", not just "the Hunter".)

 

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Actually at that time in the story Fain was at Fal Dara but had not touched the dagger yet to start the merging process with Mordeth. Unless Fain had also taken something from Shadar Logoth to become "infected" as the Aes Sedai put it. Matt still has the dagger at this point as he has not been fully healed, only partially by Mor. in Camelyn.
Fain took something from Shadar Logoth. He took Mordeth.

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