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How will Rand be "helped to die" by the Seanchan woman?

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Does this seem plausible at all?
No. It is all addressed to Rand. The question is asked by Rand, and the answer given to him. If the answer was "If you would live, hemust die", that would make sense.

 

I'd be happy with Bob T Dwarf's conclusion to the story line.
I wouldn't. It's dire.

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Well, I didn't say that they became "semi-divine", just that the last incarnation was no more or less important than any of the previous ones.  But I can see what you're saying.  I don't agree, because I think that puts too much emphasis on the most recent incarnation, but I can see it.

 

What I do not see is how this would put any serious emphasis on the last incarnation. What goes to T'a'r is just the physical appearance, the soul reverts to the more iconic state you envision, as shown by Birgittes memories.

What really matters is the soul. The physical appearance, take what is the most convenient, ie the last incarnation.

 

it should be the next "word of the year" for Meriam Webster, maj.

 

Meh, I have better ones up my sleeves. Whenever the english language(or whatever language I happen to speak at the moment) lacks a word for what I wish to express, I make one up. Sometimes, it makes communication really fun ;D

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In Tel'aran'rhiod, you can change your appearance to whatever you like. It would take an awful lot of concentration to keep that image in your mind if it's not the same as what you "know" yourself to look like, though.

 

That would indicate to me that the appearance of the Heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod is how they perceive themselves most strongly. That could be either their "root" appearance, or the last one they are familiar with.

 

In my opinion, it would be the latter one, but there could be variables. IE maybe 6 times out of 10 incarnations they look the same, or their last one wasn't a particularly happy incarnation, or maybe a short one. We have no evidence either way, that I can recall, so it's up to individual opinions.

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Does this seem plausible at all?
No. It is all addressed to Rand. The question is asked by Rand, and the answer given to him. If the answer was "If you would live, hemust die", that would make sense.

Well Rand and Lews Therin could be considered the same person as they would be inside the same body. Then if someone asks a question that could concern more than just their self it isn't impossible to answer the question speaking to both or the other person. Like if you're asking your mom if your brother could go out that night and she turns to your brother to answer the question as it concerns him.

 

Then it is completely possible to say "you" twice in a sentence and be referring to two different people. Think if someone points to one person on the first "you" and then another on the second "you" as what they are saying changes subjects. You could call it a bit confusing, but it still would make sense. I'm not certain that it is a possibility, but that was really weak "disproof."

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If the "Dragon" was ripped from TAR right before the LB he would look like Rand, not LTT.  I remember it somewhere that "heroes of the horn" look like they did in their last life when called or seen in TAR.

 

I personally think Rand will die and when Mat blows the horn he come again as one of the heroes.  And it will be Rand not LTT.

 

And if Rand dies it falls to logic that the people who would keep the forces of light together are his right and left hands, Perrin and Mat, not Logain.  Mat and Perrin are Ta'veren after all.

 

Good call on the Heroes looking as they did in their most recent life--if Rand is killed, and is brought back with the horn, you're probably right, he'd look like Rand.  Although, I have to wonder, is the Dragon bound to the horn?  As in, if the horn had been blown two centuries earlier, would LTT have been at the head of the Heroes?

 

As a quick thought though, I have to disagree with your argument that Perrin and Mat would keep the forces of light together--neither of them have the raw Power Rand does to command respect from the Western nobility and nations, and the Aiel are unlikely to follow them either.  Logain could use Illusion to act as Rand, or at the very least, could use his control of the OP to cow the Western nations, and hope that Rand's last orders to the Aiel are enough to make them follow him..... Remember, too, that the vast majority of Rand's followers have really no idea who Mat and Perrin are.  Mat may end up in joint command of the Seanchan, but I don't see the High Lords following him anytime soon.

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QUOTE

-neither of them have the raw Power Rand does to command respect from the Western nobility and nations, and the Aiel are unlikely to follow them either.  

/QUOTE

 

I reckon Mat commands some respect from Bashere and the Aiel chiefs because they seem impressed with his generaling skills and Perrin has some weight because he owns the fealty of a queen (can you own fealty?) yet i agree in one way i think Bashere will hold it together (unless he is a DF though i find that highly unlikely).

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Does this seem plausible at all?
No. It is all addressed to Rand. The question is asked by Rand, and the answer given to him. If the answer was "If you would live, hemust die", that would make sense.
Well Rand and Lews Therin could be considered the same person as they would be inside the same body.
If they are the same person, then the death of one is the death of both, therefore it was addressed to Rand and Rand must die.
Then if someone asks a question that could concern more than just their self it isn't impossible to answer the question speaking to both or the other person.
No, you just need some sort of indication that you are talking to someone else. Which is not present here. Therefore it was addressed to Rand, therefore Rand will die.

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Luckers' bodyswap theory is really well thought out and can be made to fit the facts we know, but at the same time it's so lame and I really wouldn't like to see the end of WoT going in that direction.

 

It makes sense to me that the soul bound to the wheel would have its TAR appearance as that of the last incarnation, but there's nothing to say that it is so.

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Could they not also do the whole, he lives on in memory. Like the whole 'true immortality can only be achieved through acts either great or terrible and the remembrance of those acts be it through song, poem or any name.' That could mean prophecy and while it isn't in WoT it could be applied here.

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QUOTE

-neither of them have the raw Power Rand does to command respect from the Western nobility and nations, and the Aiel are unlikely to follow them either.  

/QUOTE

 

I reckon Mat commands some respect from Bashere and the Aiel chiefs because they seem impressed with his generaling skills and Perrin has some weight because he owns the fealty of a queen (can you own fealty?) yet i agree in one way i think Bashere will hold it together (unless he is a DF though i find that highly unlikely).

 

You're absolutely right, I agree that Mat would have respect from Bashere and the Aiel chiefs--but I don't know if either (especially the Aiel) would necessarily follow orders because of it.  Additionally, Perrin has the fealty of a fairly minor monarch who has little control over her own country, and whose allegiance would probably turn if she thought Perrin couldn't protect Ghealdan.  What I really meant was that the major Western Great Powers that Rand currently controls (chiefly Illian, Tear, and Cairhien) would almost certainly not respond to orders from either Mat or Perrin, as they don't really know them (with the exception of a few specific nobility).  Moreover, I doubt the Borderland monarchs would be all that eager to band together in support of either of them as well.

 

So I guess I expressed myself poorly--I absolutely agree that Mat and Perrin might be able to maintain control over Bashere and the Aiel (assuming the Aiel accept temporary transfer of Rand's authority into either of them), but it was the other nations I was thinking about.

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You're absolutely right, I agree that Mat would have respect from Bashere and the Aiel chiefs--but I don't know if either (especially the Aiel) would necessarily follow orders because of it.  Additionally, Perrin has the fealty of a fairly minor monarch who has little control over her own country, and whose allegiance would probably turn if she thought Perrin couldn't protect Ghealdan.  What I really meant was that the major Western Great Powers that Rand currently controls (chiefly Illian, Tear, and Cairhien) would almost certainly not respond to orders from either Mat or Perrin, as they don't really know them (with the exception of a few specific nobility).  Moreover, I doubt the Borderland monarchs would be all that eager to band together in support of either of them as well.

 

So I guess I expressed myself poorly--I absolutely agree that Mat and Perrin might be able to maintain control over Bashere and the Aiel (assuming the Aiel accept temporary transfer of Rand's authority into either of them), but it was the other nations I was thinking about.

I agree at the moment and i wasn't really challenging that i think Bashere though may be able to in tandem with Logain who he has been working with a bit recently and i think that when TG starts the attitudes of the nobles and leaders of the West will almost certainly change rapidly.

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2-RJ has stated that the black cords are not the link with the DO and are not related with the TP, so that part of the theory (rand severes the conection and Moridin has to use the OP) has a problem... althou it could be countered by some other TP-related problem as.. well.. the DO being defeated before the merge or something like that.

 

2. RJ was asked whether the Black Cords were a connection to the Dark One, to which he replied 'no, thats what Rand thought they were'.

 

That being said, when Rand cuts them in tDR, Ishamael loses access to the True Power. So whatever these cords are, when cut the person loses their ability to draw on the True Power. My guess is that they are the Chosen Mark--the Mark embued by the Dark One in his Chosen which amongst other things compels obeidience from the Shadowspawn. They arn't a connection to the Dark One, but without them one cannot gain the permission from the Dark One to use the True Power.

 

Thats all conjecture though; whats not is that cutting those threads cuts a person off from the True Power.

 

From Theoryland - WoT: ( Link )

 

"Tamyrlin: I'm trying to verify Rand's impression he has at the end of book four, regarding the connection he cuts from Asmodean to the Dark One. He seemed to believe it was the connection directly from that individual to the Dark One. So what I am wondering is, is that connection key to transmigration?

 

Jordan: No, because what you are thinking of wasn't a connection. Rand only thought it was."

 

RAW has the quote.. since i can't access WOTMANIA at work:

 

Specifically i believe that when fighting Rand will sever Moridin from the Dark One as he has in the past, and Moridin will be forced to draw on saidin which we know is the catalyst for the function of the link.

 

Um ... Jordan has stated explicitly that the "black cords" which Rand severed in previous fights were not Ishamael's connection to the True Power, at least according to an unsourced booksigning answer at wotmania.  http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58

 

Quoth he:

 

Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords.

 

The "black cords" which Rand previously severed from both Ishy and Asmodean were probably the result of the special mark that the Forsaken get.  Also, they probably provided the filter which let the male Forsaken use saidin while it was still tainted without going crazy.  Quoth Asmodean:

 

"It was my link to the Great Lord that allowed me to touch saidin without going mad," he said hoarsely.  "All you have done is make me as vulnerable as you."

 

(TSR ch 58 )

 

 

So it imply that one could channel the TP without the black cords... as it imply that those are some sort of filter to the taint (therefore Demandred and Halima should have those cords, even not being able to channel the TP anymore).

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"As a quick thought though, I have to disagree with your argument that Perrin and Mat would keep the forces of light together--neither of them have the raw Power Rand does to command respect from the Western nobility and nations, and the Aiel are unlikely to follow them either.  Logain could use Illusion to act as Rand, or at the very least, could use his control of the OP to cow the Western nations, and hope that Rand's last orders to the Aiel are enough to make them follow him..... Remember, too, that the vast majority of Rand's followers have really no idea who Mat and Perrin are.  Mat may end up in joint command of the Seanchan, but I don't see the High Lords following him anytime soon."

 

except that it  wouldnt be just mat and  perrin left trying to keep everyone  together    the tower will be reformed  ( probably)  so  they  would have  the amrylins  support/advise/bullying  plus  Elayne  as  queen of andor and probably  carhien  and also being aes sedai,  Darlin is  king of tear  now  and the  aiel  would follow rands  wishes  as part of  some  Toh to  him  not to mention the  wises ones who  talk to egwene like shes aiel everyone in power knows the  last battle has to be fought  i  dont think anyone would pack up and leave or splinter into  small  groups  easily  killed. 

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I'll agree that if Rand were to end up in TAR Nynaeve could probably piece together what was done to Birgette.  The logistical hurdles of Rand explaining with Saidin something for Alivia to try with saidar are what seems pretty severe to me.  Wouldn't it be like trying to teach someone sign language over the phone? 

 

Yes it would.  My version is simply one possible explanation of how Alivia "helps him to die."  There are certainly many others that I haven't considered.  Essential point being that Rand will die and Alivia, either actively or passively will assist him in that death.

 

A couple of other minor points:

The "three at a bier" - there will be a funeral for Rand's body.

 

The "Fisher King" - if anything like my theory pans out, this is most likely Moridin, not Rand after the DO's defeat.  Deprived of the DO's intervention to help him see, the eye damage from saa literally leaves him blind or nearly so.  Possibly stilled.  Left wandering alone and friendless and blind.  No real threat to anyone or anything.

 

Three quick possible explanations for "Twice dawns the day..." - Eclipse has already been mentioned.  Enough balefire of something or someone to rewind time to before dawn.  Everybody remembers the sun rising, and yet here it comes again, a few minutes or a few hours later.  The DO gets free enough of his prison that he blots out the sun and the Dark is on the cusp of victory, when suddenly he is defeated and the light returns.  There are surely other possible explanations, as well.

 

Edit:  the one I forgot to mention:

There is something strange about Aviendha's babies because, the body that the Dragon returns in is not Rand's body.  As mentioned before, for purely literary reasons, I think The Dragon will return looking like LTT.  The book began with him, and having it end with him is too good to pass up.  So, the babies Aviendha will someday have both will ( same soul ) and won't be Rand's ( different body ).

 

 

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Yes it would.  My version is simply one possible explanation of how Alivia "helps him to die."

 

Bob, don't get me wrong, I like many points in your theory.  I was just giving a couple of pennies from my opinion coin purse.

 

It also got me thinking that if things worked out close to how you think, but instead Rand happens to knock up Avi before he ventures to TAR, when the trio try to bond Rand, the weaves could touch her children and create the something strange we are all waiting for.

 

I know it's a tangent but the theory got me thinking.

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No umbrage taken.  I just chose your question as the most relevant to try to answer.

 

And, you could very well be right about the timing of Avi's pregnancy.  I'm just taking a swing with what I think is most likely to be how things play out in a general sense.

 

At this point, I think it's silly for any of us to get too invested in any theory.  We have assurances that the finale will be printed.  All of the questions that Jordan wanted us to know the answers for will be answered.  Some of our ideas will be vindicated and others will be dashed.

 

We can be pretty sure that anything that Min viewed or Egwene dreamed or Perrin saw or that was Prophesied or Foretold will come to pass in some fashion consistent with the wording in the books.  I'm just giving my take on how, "To live you must die." will play out.

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Enough balefire of something or someone to rewind time to before dawn. Everybody remembers the sun rising, and yet here it comes again, a few minutes or a few hours later.
Balefire doesn't work like that.
The book began with him, and having it end with him is too good to pass up.
I'd say it's too bad to be used.

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If you can come up with a quote, I'd be very interested, but I'm relatively sure you won't find it.  The only three past identities we know for Birgitte are Maerion, Teadra, and Joana, and every time she talks about a past life, she is a woman.

 

Gaidal is always a man, according to Min's viewing of the man who Birgitte is always entangled with.

 

In every instance we've seen, rebirth through the Wheel results in the same gender.

I can probably find it if I do some research through my books when I get back home; but having just reread the series I recall reading this about Birgiite being a dude at one point too. In one of her discussions of her past lives when (Either when she is still in T'a'R or recently forced out) she suggests that she was a man at one point. Though a specific name or anything like that was not thrown out there.

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I wait with patience.

;)

 

back to the topic at hand; i am leaning towards the events Bob T Dwarf initially laid out; though the scenario of moving rand by boat could be influenced by the fact that they will be coming from Seanchan lands. It seems to be a pretty sure thing to me that at some point they will get ahold of him considering they have the collar. This assumption would tie together a couple of things, namely, why Alivia has to be present. To rescue Rand, the wondergirls will need to Travel to Seanchan to retrieve him (assuming they moved him there). Alivia happens to be familiar with the area. They come back by boat because perhaps they are again afraid of leaving behind their gateway to be learned by the Seanchan (and assuming they just stole Rand from the palace, it seems likely that such a very valuable damane would be nearby in a place like that).

 

Any holes there?

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Also, who in Seanchan would kidnap Rand? The major players there were all killed - the only major Seanchan left are all in Randland.

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As a side note, saying that Alivia is "familiar with the area", when the area is "Seanchan", is like saying someone is "familiar" with the entirety of North and South America.  Seanchan is at least five times the size of Randland. 

 

Good point, considering that Seanchan is North and South America of the future/past and Randland is Europe of the future/past.

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And the Land of Madmen is Australia, right?   ::)
No, we used Australia as a prison. It was the 13 colonies we used as a mental hospital.

 

Good point, considering that Seanchan is North and South America of the future/past and Randland is Europe of the future/past.
It is substantially larger than Europe.

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