Can Min's viewings fail?

[Paradox]

The evidence, so far, suggest that she's infallible. The other prophecies we get concerns great tidings and are appropriately vague. But if Min is always right does that mean that everything in randland is deterministic. Does free will exist?

[Shard]

I think Thom and Rand had a conversation about this with Ta'veren willing the weave around themselves. I think there is a certain amount of free will and I think there is a point where a person was always going to decide on the path they took.

[Roxinos]

Min is not infallible, her viewings are. There's a difference, but I'm nitpicking.

 

Notice that Min doesn't see auras around everyone. The vast majority of people can do whatever the hell they like. But the more important you are, the more likely you are to not have a choice. And yet, only certain aspects of those people's lives are determined. Not all of Min's viewings tell her a definite future. Take the darkness-firefly viewing. On a vague level, it means that Rand needs Perrin and Mat for whatever. They strengthen the fireflies to beat back the darkness. But that doesn't mean that Mat and Perrin will be around, just that Rand will fail without them.

 

So there is a deterministic quality to things. Some things are determined. Like Min's viewing that Berelain will marry a man in white. That's determined. Like her viewing that three women* will fall in love with Rand. That's determined. But most of her viewings are not of that nature. And most people do not have deterministic lives.

 

*edited 'cause I'm an idiot

[mb]

It is actually her Viewings that are always right.  There was one viewing she misinterpreted: The viewing of Perrin in Dragon Reborn Chapter 6, the tinker with sword is actually a male (Aram); Min told that it would be female.

 

This page discusses whether there is free will:

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=181

 

[Roxinos]

No. She doesn't say that the Tinker with a sword is female.

 

"[...] But I've seen things around you that you ought to know about."

 

"I've told you--"

 

"Don't be more thickheaded than you have to be, Perrin. Back there, right after you said you'd go. They were not there before. They must have to do with this journey. Or at least with you deciding to go."

 

After a moment he said reluctantly, "What did you see?"

 

"An Aielman in a cage," she said promptly. "A Tuatha'an with a sword. A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders. Both female, I think. And all the rest, of course. What is always there. Darkness swirling 'round you, and--"

 

The comment "Both female, I think" refers to the falcon and the hawk. Min says nothing about the Tuatha'an's gender.

[Paradox]

Like her viewing that three men will fall in love with Rand. That's determined.

 

I must have missed that one ;)

 

But I think I get what you're saying. Some people are completely free of (the fate portion of) the Pattern but some have specific duties, like marriaging that villager or save mankind?

[Roxinos]

*grin* Thanks for that catch. :D

 

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The Wheel effects changes in the Pattern when it needs to. That's the whole purpose of the ta'veren. In that respect, you can see the dual fatalism and freedom within the Pattern.

[Paradox]

But if it is so. It would mean that a lot of characters are immortal (until his/her viewing are fulfilled), regardless of the choice of others. 

[Roxinos]

If you wish to look at it that way, then yes. I suppose they would be immortal. But it's a moot point because the determinism applies to everyone, not just the person who the fatalistic viewing is concerning.

 

This does not apply to things like the Karaethon Cycle. It's a prophecy, yes, but the Foretelling is less deterministic than Min's viewings. At least, insofar as I can understand it.

[mb]

No. She doesn't say that the Tinker with a sword is female.

 

"[...] But I've seen things around you that you ought to know about."

 

"I've told you--"

 

"Don't be more thickheaded than you have to be, Perrin. Back there, right after you said you'd go. They were not there before. They must have to do with this journey. Or at least with you deciding to go."

 

After a moment he said reluctantly, "What did you see?"

 

"An Aielman in a cage," she said promptly. "A Tuatha'an with a sword. A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders. Both female, I think. And all the rest, of course. What is always there. Darkness swirling 'round you, and--"

 

The comment "Both female, I think" refers to the falcon and the hawk. Min says nothing about the Tuatha'an's gender.

I did get that "both female" was referring to the 2 birds.

Though next to that sentence was "And all the rest, of course"; which might be interpreted as the tinker would also be female, Perrin did interpret it as that when he was stepping into Tear.

Yet "all the rest" could be a reference that previous viewings were still there; which might have been what Min meant.

 

[Roxinos]

...Your grasp of the English language is so mind-bogglingly terrible that you constantly misinterpret things that people in the books say because you can't grasp the intricacies of the language.

 

"And all the rest, of course. What is always there. Darkness swirling 'round you, and--" is all one thought.

[Tai]

Actually, I think in theory they could be. After all, you could simply commit suicide to avoid your fate. (Unless, like Colavaere, you were fated to do just that)

[Roxinos]

It wouldn't be fate if you could avoid it. Needless to say, the fate wouldn't apply to you if you were likely to commit suicide unless, as you said, your fate was somehow tied to your suicide.

[Tai]

It wouldn't be fate if you could avoid it. Needless to say, the fate wouldn't apply to you if you were likely to commit suicide unless, as you said, your fate was somehow tied to your suicide.

 

True. But for instance, as and example, could Rand commit suicide, thus preventing viewings from happening? I think it's plausible he could.

 

But it's a odd train of thought anyway, and I'm more then willing to accept that perhaps their is just a predetermined fate. After all with things like Foretelling involved this seems quite likely.

[Roxinos]

But he wouldn't, so it's a moot point. If he would, then the fate beyond his death would not apply to him because then it wouldn't be fate.

[Paradox]

Well I guess it's time for me to state some opinions on the matter. I think that Min sees what's intended (to be woven in the Pattern) to happening. But I  also think that the DO, and by extension all his followers, can change that. If not "his" struggle would be futile.

 

We also get viewings that in my opinion are to far in the future to be pre TG. I imagining that if the DO wins (I like to think that's a possibility) that would be the end of reality.    

[Roxinos]

His struggles are futile. But it is his nature to contradict the order of Time. He acts upon his nature. Since he is the only person not bound within the Pattern, he is the only one who can effect a change to the determinism. Fortunately, he never gets his mitts on much control over the Pattern, so the determinism continues.

 

It is conceivably a possibility that the Great Lord would win because of the Great Lord's existence outside of the Pattern. But the degree to which he effects the deterministic nature of the Pattern and the Wheel (which itself is called into question with the majority of the beings within the Pattern being of a non-deterministic nature, and even the deterministic nature of those beings whose lives are determined on some level is called into question by a measure of degree) are altered by the Great Lord is entirely speculative.

[mb]

Actually, I think in theory they could be. After all, you could simply commit suicide to avoid your fate. (Unless, like Colavaere, you were fated to do just that)

 

Suicide I think could only be possible only if the Pattern allows it.

And I think the Pattern would only allow a person's death only when the person has fulfilled his/her part.

 

[Gympok]

I dont beleive the pattern is a living thing.  It only corrects things and makes them the way it is "supposed" to be.  Or atleast thats how i understand it.  So rand could commit suicide, but then the pattern would try to rectify the situation.

[zanotam]

In TSR Min at one point sees a viewing flickering between two options, and in TDR it could be viewed that her viewings can be put off. Also, it is said throughout that somethings could be avoided, but if they don't happen you WILL die.

[Roxinos]

It only corrects things and makes them the way it is "supposed" to be.

 

The Wheel corrects things and makes them the way they are "supposed" to be. Which is generally makes things like Min's viewings and the Foretellings seem like they come from the Wheel. They don't directly. They're more of a byproduct of the Wheel's machinations. Which, itself, is a bit of an oversimplification for the purposes of simplicity that implies some level of consciousness within the Wheel. Which, I'm sure we all agree, is not the case.

 

I'm not going to go into my theory on fatalism within the Wheel of Time again. Of course, I could be completely wrong about it.

 

In TSR Min at one point sees a viewing flickering between two options, and in TDR it could be viewed that her viewings can be put off. Also, it is said throughout that somethings could be avoided, but if they don't happen you WILL die.

 

Yes, I mentioned those. However, there are also viewings like "Berelain will marry a man in white" which leave no room for different eventualities. Those are more like prophecy than her average viewing. If she sees it, it will happen. Most of the time, though, she sees eventualities. However, the Tower split could not have been avoided. It was going to happen no matter what. Same with the novice in the Tower that Min viewed was going to get pregnant. No matter what Siuan did to try to prevent it, that novice was going to get pregnant.

[zanotam]

Oh yeah, I understand what you mean. To be more accurate, I think it should be said that Min's viewings, and arguably most prophecizing, does not set the future in stone, but rather happens after something becomes inevitable. It was inevitable that violence was going to erupt and sides were going to be taken and so Min saw all those bloodied Warders and AS right before the tower split, it is inevitable that the more key people are together the more likely the light is to succeed even if the DO or whatever tries harder.

[water_seeker]

The DO exists outside the Pattern and as such, wouldn't be subject to its...whims.

 

However, there are also viewings like "Berelain will marry a man in white" which leave no room for different eventualities.

 

I agree with this to a degree.  In the case of that specific viewing, the "man in white" doesn't have to be someone specific.  He doesn't even have to be a whitecloak.  So any man wearing white will do.  So that much HAS to happen, but who fulfills the "man in white" part isn't specific...(And yes, I know, we all agree that it's Galad.)

 

That means that in even the most concrete viewing or foretelling, there is some degree of "wiggle-room."

 

As for the possibility of Min's viewings being false...If they aren't fulfilled in the way we think they should be fulfilled, or the "obvious" way, the Pattern will see to it that it is fulfilled.

 

Logain will see glory.  Maybe that glory is supposed to come from defeating Taim.  But maybe someone offs Taim before Logain gets a chance.  Logain will find glory in another way.

[Elgee]

Min's viewing about Berelain was: "Just a man in white who will make her fall head over heels."

 

Nothing about him falling in love with her too, or the two of them getting married.

[Blade]

Actually, I think in theory they could be. After all, you could simply commit suicide to avoid your fate. (Unless, like Colavaere, you were fated to do just that)

 

Suicide I think could only be possible only if the Pattern allows it.

And I think the Pattern would only allow a person's death only when the person has fulfilled his/her part.

 

 

Actually with this I'm inclined to believe that it IS possible to sidestep fate but the consequences are fatal. After all, when mat's being carted of from the first doorframe terangreal he asks why he has to go to rhuidean and marry the daughter of the nine moons and he's told it's because he will have sidestepped the threads of fate or something like that.