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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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<Spoiler Alert--do not read if you haven't finished book 4>

 

 

 

 

Lately I have been thinking more about Siuan and her being deposed. It has really been bothering me seeing as how Siuan had already announced to the Hall that the Dragon had been reborn and an Aes Sedai was attached to him.

 

Why exactly was she deposed? I could see how the Red would jump on any small excuse to do it, but how could Elaida convince anyone else to go along with it? What could Elaida possibly have said? Even if she knew and could prove everything (which she couldn't) about how Siuan had been secertly supporting Moiraine's search for and guidance of Rand, what happened that would justify being stilled and deposed?

 

Up to that point, I don't think any catestrophes had occured because of Siuan's orders. It seems like all Elaida could have accused Siuan of was attempting to manipulate the Dragon Reborn without telling the Hall. That doesn't seem too bad to me. In fact, that seems like the Amyrlin's right and duty--to direct events as she sees fit.

 

And there was no attempt by the Hall to dig deeper into the turth of what was going on. I understand how they could never put the Amyrlin on trial, but the whole deposing seemed shoddy work to me.

 

And then they killed Siuan's warder. That was completely unnessecary--and murder. She could have been forced to release his bond or pass him to another sister if they really felt the need to save him from the effects of Siuan being stilled (are there any?).

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Guest cwestervelt

I'm not sure how far you have read so it is a little hard to know how much to say...

 

Suian was deposed because Elaida was very careful (or so she thought) in what she did and who she went to for aid. Elaida's eventual "choice" for Keeper of the Chronicles was one of the first people that Elaida went to, and, without her Elaida would likely be the one that was Stilled. That Aes Sedai was critical to Suian's downfall for more reasons than are initially apparent.

 

Also, Suian was not deposed by a full meeting of the hall, but by a secret session attended by those specifically chosen to attend. That way, Elaida made sure that only those she knew would back her were present when the vote was called. The implications were that Elaida knew a full sitting would not turn against Suian, or if they did, the most they would do was to try imposing some form of penance while leaving Suian in the Amyrlin Seat.

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I've read the whole series, so feel free to say it all.

 

I know that is wasn't the full Hall, but it must have been at least a majority, right? That would mean at least 11?? Could there have been that many lackies (of Alviarin and Elaida) in the Hall willing to depose and still Siuan? I find that hard to believe, but I guess it is possible.

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Didn't this have really nothing to do about Siuan at all? (Although those doing the deposing certainly wanted to be rid of her). Siuan's removal was orchestrated by Mesaana using the BA, in her scheme to sow discord in the White Tower.

 

So I think if the whole story behind it all were known, then Mesaana's identity would be known too.

 

If you haven't already, check out a pertinent WoTFAQ article:

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.6_what-up-nondark/2.6.5_sitters.html

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Guest cwestervelt

Eleven would be for a vote when the full Hall was in attendance. I think all that was required was a majority vote of those Sitters in attendance. Anyone who wasn't present, wouldn't count against the required total.

 

That is why Alviarin was able to establish herself as Keeper under the pretense of how valuable the "White" Ajah was in securing the Amyrlin Seat for Elaida. Of more use was Alviarin's intimate knowledge of the inner workings of each Ajah resulting from her being head of the Black Ajah. She knew precisely which Sitters form each Aja would be most likely to go with Elaida, thus stacking the attendance list and guaranteeing an easy landslide.

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Guest cwestervelt
Didn't this have really nothing to do about Siuan at all? (Although those doing the deposing certainly wanted to be rid of her). Siuan's removal was orchestrated by Mesaana using the BA' date=' in her scheme to sow discord in the White Tower.

 

So I think if the whole story behind it all were known, then Mesaana's identity would be known too.

 

If you haven't already, check out a pertinent WoTFAQ article:

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.6_what-up-nondark/2.6.5_sitters.html[/quote']

 

While deposing Suian aided Mesaana, she can't be considered the originator of the plot. Elaida instigated it and went to Alviarin, not the other way around. If Elaida hadn't done that, Suian never would have been deposed.

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Well since this is a forum about siuan i have a thought.

 

If they were to still siuan again and then use a male channeler to heal her, do u think that she would be back to her full strength?

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Guest cwestervelt

My opinion is that she would be restored to her current strength. A re-stilling would be causing new damage, and only the new damage can be restored.

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While deposing Suian aided Mesaana, she can't be considered the originator of the plot. Elaida instigated it and went to Alviarin, not the other way around. If Elaida hadn't done that, Suian never would have been deposed.

 

CW, this has to be the dumbest thing you have said to date, seriously.

 

You are saying that it is merely COINCIDENCE that Alviarin is the one who Elaida takes into confidence. Furthermore, it is clear in TSR ch.1 that they are not fast friends, yet by TSR 47, Elaida raises her to Keeper.

 

It must also be coincidence that Alviarin , the sister who Elaida turns to, just happens to be head of the Black Ajah, under direct orders from Mesaana, who is also in the Tower?

 

The scene in chapter 1 in TSR is there for our benefit. Contrary to your belief, it is Alviarin who initiates conversation with Elaida, who had to that point not noticed her.

 

Alviarin: "Talking to yourself,Elaida?..."

 

Elaida turned her head to regard Alviarin...

(the start of a beautiful friendship)

 

Alviarin was deliberately put there, to get into Elaida's confidence, by Mesaana.

No doubt at all.

 

Mesaana practically takes credit for the schism in the Tower in KoD at the Forsaken happy hour.

 

Off camera actions take some speculation, but here is a reasonable list. The plans for taking Siuan down were all made off camera between TSR ch1 and ch47. I am positive that Alviarin had a lot to do with the planning and execution (again under orders from Mesaana), and on camera she gets rewarded by the Keeper's stole on her shoulders.

 

Note that Elaida did not raise a Red, as would be expected. Somewhere, somehow, things went from TSR ch1.: "There was no love lost between Red and White...White stood with blue..." to that same White being made Keeper.

 

You would put that all on Elaida, and only Elaida. Again, your prejudice against the effectiveness of the Forsaken is absolutely astonishing. And unlike the case of Graendal, there is really nothing to paint Mesaana as ineffective. She's in the tower, wants to create a rift in the Aes Sedai. Presto, Aes Sedai Civil War. I'd say Mesaana deserves the benefit of the doubt here, as she appears to be one-for-one.

 

But, as you would put it, one Red Sister with delusions of grandeur would be just as effective. The only difference is without Mesaana and the Black, she wouldn't be Amyrlin.

 

In addition, it comes to pass that the events in NS regarding the Amyrlin's death was done by the Black as well (although I believe run by Ishy at the time). So you would dismiss that the Black (ergo Mesaana) would not be responsible in this matter, despite the head of the Black being a key character in events?

 

So where exactly are the evil characters, CW? What might they be doing? What exactly is the Dragon fighting? Enlighten us...

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Siuan being deposed and stilled bothered me also. I couldn't see the reasoning in it, but then I thought...that's exactly what makes it a coup on Elaida's part. That's exactly why the Tower is split at the moment. If Elaida had actually, lawfully gone about the process of deposing Siuan, there would be no split because everyone would be in the loop and it would be lawfully put forward and debated. As it is, Elaida staged a coup, not sharing the information with the Tower and the result is this catostrophic schism in the ranks of the Aes Sedai.

 

Elaida took a shaky arbitrary premise forward and staged a coup against Siuan. One third of the Tower rejected it outright and left, the other two thirds are either staying out of it until it resolves itself or stayed to try to keep the Tower from collapsing, or because they were too confused about what happened to do otherwise. Mostly the loyal Reds and lackies of Elaida have kept her somewhat afloat. As Egwene's prodding in the Tower showed in Knife of Dreams, Elaida is on borrowed time.

 

Siuan's treatment should bother you. It bothers most Aes Sedai, and that is why they are in the predicament they are in now.

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You guys are like Frick and Frak, maybe Jonn and CW are the same person? I tire of arguing against the nonsense the two of you spout, seemingly in conjunction.

 

Elaida is the pawn, she is not controlling any of the events, not Siuan's removal, not the split in the Tower.

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Guest cwestervelt

Havoc,

 

Your incessant personal attacks and rantings against people who disagree with you are getting very old and tiring. It also speaks highly of your extreme level of immaturity. It makes it very difficult not to descend to your level when attempting to respond.

 

I never said Mesaana didn't benefit from the coup in the Tower, nor did I say the Black Ajah was not involved. In fact, I said that without Alviarin's particular position, that of being head of the Black Ajah, the coup would never have been successful. I also never said it was friendship on Elaida's part that made Alviarin Keeper. It was a necessity stemming from Alviarin's role in securing the Stole for Elaida.

 

During the prologue to The Shadow Rising there was nothing to indicate that Mesaana was already in the Tower. It wasn't until Lord of Chaos that we are given that information. There is a considerable passage of time between Suian's deposition, and that information being provided. Plenty of time for Mesaana to have established herself after the coup. I also don't believe that Mesaana is omniscient. There is nothing to indicate that Elaida was being compelled, so without being all-knowing Mesaana would not have known Elaida would be in that place at that time for Alviarin to encounter her. Mesaana also would not have known that Elaida would then bring up the issue of Siuan. If you read the prologue, it is apparent that Alviarin was initially just amusing Elaida until she saw advantage for the Black Ajah.

 

I really don't care what claims Mesaana makes. Apparently, you choose to take what the Forsaken say at face value. I, on the other hand, see them as people who are pathological liars, and I wouldn't believe it if one told me the sky was blue until I checked myself. I also see them as showing a definite willingness to take credit for anything that makes them look better even if they weren't involved. What I see Mesaana doing is taking the credit to make herself look better knowing that none of the other Foresaken could dispute her claims.

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Of course the Black Ajah had a hand in deposing Siuan, but are there enough Black sitters to pull it off on their own? It is true that Mesaana could have compelled any other Sitters, but I don't think that happened.

 

Furthermore, when Elaida actually confronted Siuan, she said the vote had been unanimous. Of course they probably asked for the greater consensus once the lesser consensus had been met (if anyone had voted against deposing in the first round).

 

Doesn't it stand to reason that some of those Sitters were not Black or Red and voted to depose Siuan on the merits of the case?

 

My problem here is in how easy it seems to be to get rid of the Amyrlin--the most powerful person in the world. It doesn't make any since to me for it to require less than 11 Sitters, and even that seems low. Shouldn't it be more like two-thirds, putting it at 14. Or else any Amyrlin a powerful Sitter in the Hall really didn't like would be easy to oust.

 

And no one has mentioned Alric yet. How in the heck did they get away with murdering him?

 

Havoc, while I agree that some of the events were surely manipulated by the Black and possibly Mesaana, Elaida is not a complete pawn. Her removal of Alviarin as her Keeper shows that. Elaida got the Hall to let her choose a new Keeper, so she is not totally in the grip of the Black.

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No one needs to be omnicient to have Alviarin go and place herself in Elaida's path.

 

It is no different than Yukiri's orders to Meidani. They are non-specific to time/place. Alviarin is told to start up a conversation with Elaida, to use her Vulcan-like White logic to not-quite-agree-yet-not-quite-disagree with whatever Elaida is thinking, then begin to nudge her along. That is what happened.

 

Now, as to who is pulling the strings, it is not known, but in my opinion, the best fit is this:

 

Ishy is controlling the BA in the beginning (meaning NS/EotW). No reason to give it up to a fellow competitor. Except for one thing, Rand kills him with the glowing letter opener in TDR.

 

Now, all of a sudden, we get a glimpse of an increase in BA activity at the beginning of TSR. Ishy is gone. What gives? The simplest answer is Mesaana. We know she is running the show by ACoS, and we have no real evidence, (other then some single instances in Alviarin's POV) that any other Forsaken had taken control of the BA between Ishy and Mesaana. So I submit that Mesaana is on the scene at the beginning of TSR, she has a plan, and she is going with it. Split the tower.

 

So while yes, Mesaana could have insinuated herself after the coup, that would leave you with what I think is a less strong argument for Elaida and (especially) Alviarin acting all on their own. And given a) Alviarin's fear of Elaida's Foretelling talent and b) how smooth the "lynch mob" operation went; I have to believe there was a master plan at work.

 

That is the reason for this small unsolved mystery, of Siuan's removal and stilling. It was a sham, orchestrated by Mesaana, through Alviarin.

 

If we knew all the details, we would know who Mesaana was/is. So that's why we don't have those details. Kind of like the Asmo murder, but much easier to figure out, IMHO.

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First off, I highly doubt Alviarin would have needed to be told to start up a conversation with Elaida. She is the head of the Black Ajah and thus probably had many of her own plans in mind. She would know that Suian wasn't being any help to the Black Ajah's schemes, and certainly hearing any knews about Falme or Tear would tell her that she needed to replace Suian. Elaida is an obvious choice in replacement. She's powerful, experienced, and get's caught up in her emotions easily thus becoming maniputable. As for fear of Eliada's foretelling, in the Prolouge to ACoS we learn that Alviarin hadn't even thought on the possiblity of there being a foretelling because it was so "erratic and infrequent." As for the lynch mob going smoothly, at the time not a lot of Sitters liked Suian, she was keeping too many secrets during too perilous a time. Couple that with only having the bare minimum, most of whom were already talked into siding with Eliada, or pressured in, and it doesn't take a great leap of imagination to believe it could be pulled off. Given Alviarin's support, and thus the support of all Black Ajah Sitters, it would make Eliada seem a very good choice to have a different Ajah supporting her so strongly.

 

Next, you're forgetting that there were in fact other Forsaken during Ishy's reign, and between his and Messana's. Alviarin lists being met by Lanfear, Graendal, and Be'lal which would have had to have happened between they're release (at the end of EotW) and the Prolouge to ACoS. In fact, it is not until the Prolouge of ACoS that Alviarin works soley for Messana.

 

"If you would serve me, child, then you must serve and obey me. Not Semirhage or Demandred. Not Graendal or anyone else. Only me. And the Great Lord, of course, but me above all save him."

 

"I live to serve you, Great Mistress."(p. 42, Prolouge, ACoS)

 

Next you make a statment saying that the Black Ajah hadn't been doing much until after Suian's desposed. This of course would mean that the events of TGH and TDR weren't of great importance. Which of course they were. The 13 sisters lead by Liandrin did quiet a bit of damage. This being under the directions of Ishy, Be'lal, and finally Mogehiden.

 

Then you state that Messana must have been in the Tower by the Prolouge of TSR, despite the fact that all the evidence points to this being false. We have no proof of Messana even being in the Tower before Eliada's raise. We don't know that Messana is in the Tower prior to LoC, and Alviarin states in the Prolouge to ACoS that

 

The logic was clear, and stunning. Messana hid herself because she might be recognized. She must reside in the Tower itself. On the face of it, that seemed impossible, yet nothing else fit. Given that she must be one of the sisters; surely she was not amoung servants, bound to labor and sweat. But who? Too many women had been out of the Tower for years before Elida's summons, too many had no close friends, or none at all. Messana must be one of those. Alviarin very much wanted to know. (p. 41, Prolouge, ACoS)

 

If Alviarin figures she must have come to the Tower after Eliada's summons, that would mean that Alviarin probably did not have any contact with her prior to Eliada's summons. This of course would fit very well in the time frame, considering by TFoH the Forsaken were still setting up, and it would allow Messana much more security being one of many women to come in during a rush, rather then killing a sister in the Tower and taking her place.

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After reading through all the arguments, I have to say that I side with the idea of Messana being the root of the evil in this case.

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siuans warder (andric?) is described as old. he would have fought for siuan. besides, the secrecy required to pull the whole thing off would have been negated by any attempt at a humane bond transfer. what they did was barely within tower law, too many would have opposed it for it to go ahead if tey had told people.

he was just unfortunate.

asto the others, the warders were split just the same as the sisters, but they were able to fight one another, so they did.

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