Healing madness caused by the taint

[MikeRiley]

I did a few searches looking for this, if it's been brought up already I couldn't find it.

 

We know that Ishmael was able to make Lews Therin sane at the end so he would know what he did. Assuming Lews Therin's madness was the result of the taint and not just old age, wouldn't this mean it'd be possible for certain knowledgeable healers like Flinn and Nynaeve to figure out? Or is that one of those things Jordan said couldn't be healed? I recall him saying any effects of the taint would stay once Saidin was cleansed.

[mb]

The "Healing" I think was a True Power kind; and that I think only temporarily.

 

I am not sure if the One Power could do something similar.

 

About the Cleansing, it did not get rid of the effects; but made it so that male channelers would not become more insane.

 

[Underscore]

In KoD, when Rand captures Semirhage, she say that when they (the male channelers) hear a real voice that even Graendal can't heal them. Doesn't that suggest healing is possible when the madness is realised in other ways.

 

In the prologue Ishemael uses the the Dark One's power to heal Lewis Therin. This would suggest that the true power is required to heal the Dark One's taint. On that note Lewis Therin was sane when he killed himself, shouldn't that mean the voice Rand hears is (or should be) sane?

[Tyrell]

In that same prologue Ishamael IIRC says something along the lines of "are you really that far-gone already? At best one of your Sisters might only give you a few minutes of lucidity" <- paraphrase.

[Fox]

It could of been just a temporary healing. A moment of clarity.More of an attack than a healing. Ishy wanted LTT to know what he did. I don't think LTT was ever truly cured of his madness, and knowing that he killed his entire family just drove him further into madness.

 

Taint cleansing would only stop further new male channelers from going mad, and stop those already exposed from getting worse.

[MikeRiley]

Yeah, the part about the taint cleansing in my post was a question on whether Jordan said anything about healing the madness being possible. I figured if he did it would be around the time he said any effects of the taint would remain with Saidin cleansed.

 

I missed the part about Ishamael's suggestion that Lews Therin's Sisters might be able to set back the madness a bit. I can't re-read it, either.. The dog ate everything in my copy of Eye of the World up to half through chapter 1. So this other idea is probably already proven false, but could the black cord Rand sees linking each of the forsaken to the Dark One just be something holding back the taint? Once Asmodean's is cut he knows he's going to go mad because his link is gone. Maybe that's not so much a sign of the Dark One but a sort of filter? Ishamael might have given Lews Therin one somehow.

[Angel of Death]

I believe it is POSSIBLE to heal it, but I doubt we will see it in aMoL.

[ROB_88]

So this other idea is probably already proven false, but could the black cord Rand sees linking each of the forsaken to the Dark One just be something holding back the taint? Once Asmodean's is cut he knows he's going to go mad because his link is gone. Maybe that's not so much a sign of the Dark One but a sort of filter? Ishamael might have given Lews Therin one somehow.

 

no, i don't think it's that easy.

it's a string connected to the DO's fingers so he can keep his puppets in check, it just has the added effect of being a filter, can't let the puppets go insane and die all of a sudden.

and i highly doubt Ishmael could put one on LTT, the Taint is a part of the DO and the only thing that can protect from the DO's influence is another part of old Leafblighter, or perhaps the Creator if he ever started to care.

[Fox]

So this other idea is probably already proven false, but could the black cord Rand sees linking each of the forsaken to the Dark One just be something holding back the taint? Once Asmodean's is cut he knows he's going to go mad because his link is gone. Maybe that's not so much a sign of the Dark One but a sort of filter? Ishamael might have given Lews Therin one somehow.

 

no, i don't think it's that easy.

it's a string connected to the DO's fingers so he can keep his puppets in check, it just has the added effect of being a filter, can't let the puppets go insane and die all of a sudden.

and i highly doubt Ishmael could put one on LTT, the Taint is a part of the DO and the only thing that can protect from the DO's influence is another part of old Leafblighter, or perhaps the Creator if he ever started to care.

 

 

Which takes back to the True Power. It makes sense. I mean that's probably where the taint came from. It would make sense that it would also allow someone to breakthrough it temporarily.

[mb]

Which takes back to the True Power. It makes sense. I mean that's probably where the taint came from. It would make sense that it would also allow someone to breakthrough it temporarily.

 

It seems doubtful that the Dark One used the True Power to taint saidin.

The books tell that the Taint was the Dark One's counterstrike at being sealed in the Bore.

 

[Fox]

 

 

It seems doubtful that the Dark One used the True Power to taint saidin.

The books tell that the Taint was the Dark One's counterstrike at being sealed in the Bore.

 

 

Your right. I just always thought that counterstrike was TP borne. I only came to that because the TP seems to be only "magic" he has. That's what I believe the DO uses to do the things he does. Lanfear (as Mierin) helped drilled the bore saying she discovered another power source that won't restrict them by gender. If this was covered before, sorry.

[MikeRiley]

Doesn't the True Power cause madness as well as the Saa? Suppose the taint is nothing more than the True Power spilled into Saidin? Like oil and water. We know you have to go through the taint to get to Saidin so whatever it is, it doesn't mix.

[Mr Ares]

It seems doubtful that the Dark One used the True Power to taint saidin. The books tell that the Taint was the Dark One's counterstrike at being sealed in the Bore.

It seems doubtful he used anything else. After all, the TP is His version of the Power. And the books do indeed say it was His counterstroke. How is that useful for telling us what He used for that counterstroke? It isn't. Most likely, He used TP.

[ROB_88]

i think he's more poweerful than just the normal TP

the TP is a part of him, not the other way around

[mb]

It seems doubtful that the Dark One used the True Power to taint saidin. The books tell that the Taint was the Dark One's counterstrike at being sealed in the Bore.

It seems doubtful he used anything else. After all, the TP is His version of the Power. And the books do indeed say it was His counterstroke. How is that useful for telling us what He used for that counterstroke? It isn't. Most likely, He used TP.

 

Where in the books tell that the Dark One used the True Power?  If he did use it, the Forsaken might have been able to undo the Cleansing.

I think the Dark One has another power that he reserves to himself.  His resurrecting Aginor, Balthamel, Ishamael, and maybe Lanfear seems an indicator of this.

 

[Mr Ares]

Where in the books tell that the Dark One used the True Power?

Where does it say He didn't? It is quiet either way. Given the TP is Shai'tan's Power, then either it is what was used, or He has another one which has gone completely unmnetioned in 11 books.

If he did use it, the Forsaken might have been able to undo the Cleansing.

What?

I think the Dark One has another power that he reserves to himself. His resurrecting Aginor, Balthamel, Ishamael, and maybe Lanfear seems an indicator of this.

There is no indicator of this, and you think something completely unsupported by evidence.

[Thor]

Well about the resurrection part, it's clear that TP isn't used for resurrection, else Ishamael can go around resurrecting everything.  It's got more to do with the DO being able to reach into parts of the pattern and snatch weaves.

 

That is why it took so long for aginor/balthamal to be brought back, the DO had to wait for the seals to weaken enough so that he can touch the pattern enough to bring them back.

 

If the DO has full access to the pattern, he can instantly kill everyone or resurrect everyone in the world.

 

That particular ability has nothing to do with the power at all I'm sure.

 

As for the taint, I have no idea.  Maybe TP was used, maybe not.  But all I feel is that he never tainted saidin on purpose, it was more of a side effect of him trying to prevent being sealed back in.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Where in the books tell that the Dark One used the True Power?

Where does it say He didn't? It is quiet either way. Given the TP is Shai'tan's Power, then either it is what was used, or He has another one which has gone completely unmnetioned in 11 books.

If he did use it, the Forsaken might have been able to undo the Cleansing.

What?

I think the Dark One has another power that he reserves to himself. His resurrecting Aginor, Balthamel, Ishamael, and maybe Lanfear seems an indicator of this.

There is no indicator of this, and you think something completely unsupported by evidence.

 

Given the DO's somewhat ethereal nature, wouldn't it be just as feasible to believe that the taint, the True Power, bubble's of evil, etc are just derivatives of his / her / it's very being?  Isn't it just as possible that he may have just willed it / them?

[Bela]

Given the DO's somewhat ethereal nature, wouldn't it be just as feasible to believe that the taint, the True Power, bubble's of evil, etc are just derivatives of his / her / it's very being?  Isn't it just as possible that he may have just willed it / them?

 

Agreed. It is probably more logical that the dark one is beyond the powers used by mere mortals.

 

In referral to this topic I will point to LTT (the one in Rand's head). It seems as though there are moments of clarity in the madness, as though coming out of a strong inebriation. Even Baal'zamon seemed quite sane in many moments, and he was beyond mad. As with my earlier example I would say that with a strong will it would be theoretically possible to overcome that intoxication for a few seconds with sheer will/brainpower, but eventually it will take hold again. With Ishy bringing LTT's focus onto Ilyena for example, that could have provided a small buffer he needed in order to assume sanity for moments.

[Fox]

Given the DO's somewhat ethereal nature, wouldn't it be just as feasible to believe that the taint, the True Power, bubble's of evil, etc are just derivatives of his / her / it's very being?  Isn't it just as possible that he may have just willed it / them?

 

Then that would put him on par with the Creator. I might be going on a limb here, so please don't it yet...  :-\

 

I don't think that the DO is equal in power to the Creator. The DO was he wouldn't be imprison. The Creator seems to be the more powerful of the two and is just staying out of the whole thing. The DO is a created being, he uses different weapons than the creator,  TP vs. TS.

 

Further out on the limb I go...I think (cause their isn't any real proof) the TP is the entire power source of the DO and for all we know of the DO, he could just be a very old, corrupt, and power hungry human being who was sealed away before the AOL, and the DO as we know Him is really a giant illusion. Basically, a power behind the power. Kinda like Melkor/ Morgoth was the power behind Sauron in LoTR

 

I really don't think thats really what it is, since it's the last book, but I'm open minded about it.

[Mr Ares]

Well about the resurrection part, it's clear that TP isn't used for resurrection, else Ishamael can go around resurrecting everything. It's got more to do with the DO being able to reach into parts of the pattern and snatch weaves.

It's clear the TP isn't used for resurrection, because if it was Ishmael would do it, even if he doesn't know how, even if it takes more strength than he can use, and even if it requires access to places that someone who is part of the Pattern cannot reach, but an evil god who is outside the Pattern might be able to? As for Shai'tan snatching weaves...how? With what? I have an answer. He has this Power available to Him, that allows Him to do stuff. It's called the TP. Maybe he uses that.

 

That is why it took so long for aginor/balthamal to be brought back, the DO had to wait for the seals to weaken enough so that he can touch the pattern enough to bring them back.

So why did it take so long for the others? Finding bodies is part of the problem. What you say is supported by what?

 

Now, given that we know Shai'tan is the source of a Power that would allow Him to do things, why would we assume that what He uses to do things is not this Power, and is instead something else? Occam's Razor.

 

The DO is a created being, he uses different weapons than the creator,  TP vs. TS.

How do you square this with RJ saying he sees Shai'tan as the dark counterpoint to the Creator? And him describing his world as Manichaean?

[benr]

 

 

I don't think that the DO is equal in power to the Creator.

 

I apologize for my laziness here, in not researching for the exact quote, but there is a quote from RJ that says that the DO and the Creator are exactly equal in power.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

I don't think that the DO is equal in power to the Creator. The DO was he wouldn't be imprison. The Creator seems to be the more powerful of the two and is just staying out of the whole thing. The DO is a created being, he uses different weapons than the creator,  TP vs. TS.

 

As indicated in that last few posts, I'm not sure you'll find any evidence to suggest that the DO is a "created" being or that the DO's any more or less omnipotent than the Creator. 

 

Also, I'm definitely not a philosopher, but I'm not sure you can reasonably classify the TP and the TS as weapons being used by either the DO or the Creator.  I think they may be better understood as forces or constructs derived from them respectively.  These forces can be used by others as weapons or in other, varied ways.   

[Fox]

How do you square this with RJ saying he sees Shai'tan as the dark counterpoint to the Creator? And him describing his world as Manichaean?

 

Okay you guys got me there. I haven't seen a thing on what RJ says. people quote him all the time (and I do trust them) I just don't know where everyone gets them. I humbly back down and say, I was wrong.

[Mandragoran]

Well about the resurrection part, it's clear that TP isn't used for resurrection, else Ishamael can go around resurrecting everything. It's got more to do with the DO being able to reach into parts of the pattern and snatch weaves.

It's clear the TP isn't used for resurrection, because if it was Ishmael would do it, even if he doesn't know how, even if it takes more strength than he can use, and even if it requires access to places that someone who is part of the Pattern cannot reach, but an evil god who is outside the Pattern might be able to? As for Shai'tan snatching weaves...how? With what? I have an answer. He has this Power available to Him, that allows Him to do stuff. It's called the TP. Maybe he uses that.

 

I believe the DO can only touch parts of the pattern connected to the True Power. Hence the guarantee of immortality for those forsaken not burned out of the pattern by balefire. He can reach them, bring them back and put them into new bodies.

 

Back on topic, in Rand's case the madness manifests as hearing the voice of a past life. Semirhage says Graendal is more accomplished on the subject but that even for her, "reintegration" usually fails. Whether she uses TP to accomplish this is unknown.