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Luckers

Land of the Madmen, Ishamael, Rumours... And Stuff.

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Ok, first ill premise this by saying that yes, i know, the books will never go to the Land of the Madmen--RJ said so, and there ain't enough time.

 

Now, some things strike me as interesting about the rumours of the Land of the Madmen, as well as some of Ishamael's actions.

 

THE LAND OF THE MADMEN

 

1. No ones actually been there. Look carefully at what is said about it in the Guide... The sea Folk say that both men and women channel and are insane and the like, but it also said that they do not go there. This to me has the sound of a social truth... i.e. at one stage the Sea Folk DID explore that place, and found those things and were forced to flee... likely quickly.

 

2. The land is a small island/continent... utterly self contained and cut of. By all apparent descriptions the land that can be seen from sea is inhospitable... volcanoes and the like. This would make it a very easily controlled land, both keeping people out and in.

 

3. Concider the nature of an island where male channelers still wandered and destroyed things... female ones too, apparently... how long would humans survive in that?

 

THE SHADOW AND ISHAMAEL

 

1. We know that Ishamael has been involved with keeping darkfriend channelers alive and in power, he set up the infrastructure of the Black Ajah, and has since then displayed a direct hand in their running with the killing of Alviarin's predecessor.

 

2. The Shadow is heavily lacking in channlers. The Light has, atm, roughly around 13,000 channelers, whilst given what we have seen amidst the Asha'men, Aes Sedai and the like, even being generous, the dark may have at best 3000.--thats making assumptions that there are channelers amongst the Aiel and Sea Folk who are darkfriends... and a lot of them. Indeed, to date we only know of around 300 darkfriend channelers... and know of two channeling organisations that have none or very few (the Kin and the damane/sul'dam)

 

3. Taim admitted to training other channelers before. Taim has displayed certain traits we identify with opinions held by the Forsaken--i.e. the 'so-called' Aiel comment and the like.

 

4. In the Trolloc Wars there were male dreadlords who were by all appearences trained. Someone must have gathered and trained them, the likely culprit being Ishamael.

 

CONCLUSION

 

Here is what i think is happening. I think that around twenty years ago when Ishamael was active in the world (killing Alviarin's predessesor) he realised that the Last Battle was approaching, and amongst other things he began to gather channelers. I suspect that Taim was one of these channelers. They were then sent to train others and in that way increase the numbers of the dark. Chronologically after being trained, Taims assertion of when he was training other men fits, he only lied about the result.

 

If he was doing it, there were probably others--possibly even women, though there isn't nessasarily evidence of this... and indeed, why would Ishamael bother when organisations already existed to do that... but still its a possibility. Then there are the aiel men who could channel who have been going north--based on the Seanchan there may be up to a thousand of those about, who could have been turned using the the thirteen and thirteen thing.

 

But where are they being housed? The obvious answer is at Shayol Ghoul, but there is neither indication nor implication of a human presense in Shayol Ghoul when any of our friends, the forsaken, are there to visit. It's possible the Forsaken do not even know of these channelers--that would fit with Ishy's style.

 

Somewhere else in the blight then? Only borderlander incursions into the blight can go quite deep.

 

I think the Land of the Madmen. I think that those men and women who can channel in that land are recruited by the dark... turned if nessasary, and indeed may have been for some time. The rumours of that land fit someone manipulating the fear of others to keep strangers from looking to closely. It's possible that place has been a stronghold of the shadow since the Trolloc Wars or before.

 

This is not to say i think there is some secret Shadow sworn nation hiding there... indeed i think the geography of the land means a very small human population, but i think that that is currently where Ishamael has several thousand channelers training...

 

Predmoinant in this, i suppose, is RJ's assertion that the light is in a bad way, but in all the places of the world it looks instead that the light is in a good way, the only place a group that could contest the might of the Light without us having seen it is, i think, the Land of the Madmen.

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Perfect, Luckers, perfect.

 

I have been of the same opinion about the Land of Madmen for some time (after I decided it was not Australia). I mean, if there are all these crazy dudes channeling away like crazy, then they're ripe for the picking. Those who walk in the Light will be scared off, and seeing as Ishamael isn't scared OF ANYTHING, he could train them.

 

This is ominous. I assume those channelers will be powerful, maybe as strong or close to it as those in the Age of Legends. The decline in power of Aes Sedai is because their reputation means much fewer people want to come to the Tower to learn, and because the gentling of young men who channel is culling the ability out of the human race. This wouldn't happen, and since no one who couldn't channel their way out of the serious shit they'd be in with male channelers all over the place, the non-channelers are probably extinct. Thus, with channelers breeding with channelers for eons, generation after generation, perhaps accelerated by Ishamael's artifical selection (I never saw him as a human rights advocate), maybe they could be crazy powerful, even without Forsaken interference. With it, though...

 

Dum-dum-DUM!

 

Very well put, I must say, Luckers.

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Guest cwestervelt

The Light is in a good position? I don't think so. In most cases they still can't stop fighting against each other unless the Seanchan provide a common enemy. Rand wants a truce, but he isn't any closer to actually getting it. Thanks to Suroth's and Semirhage's attempts to trap him, he is further from one than before Knife of Dream's began. Especially since Perrin's agreement is already over and done with since the Shaido were broke and he has Faile back. Mat openly stated to Tuon that he is prepared to, and expects to fight the Seanchan in the near future. Additionaly, the Borderlands are primed and ready to be overrun as all of there leaders and 200,000 plus soldiers are down in Andor and wanting to go south. Don't forget that Aes Sedai are still fractured. Even after the Rebel's return to the Tower, the division along Ajah lines within Tower is going to be hard to resolve. The White Tower could needs years before they are truly ready for the Last Battle now.

 

If the Shadow attacked now, the Light would be almost completely overrun and in danger of losing before they even realized Tarmon Gaidon had begun.

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I agree with Luckers. Ever since I read an old post about the vast gulf in number of channelers for the dark and light, I started to think about where the shadow might get more--and, bingo, the Aiel who go to the blight would be a great source to harvest from. They would certainly make some deadly dreadlords!

 

Where is the Land of Madmen mentioned in the series?

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Guest cwestervelt
I agree with Luckers. Ever since I read an old post about the vast gulf in number of channelers for the dark and light' date=' I started to think about where the shadow might get more--and, bingo, the Aiel who go to the blight would be a great source to harvest from. They would certainly make some deadly dreadlords!

 

Where is the Land of Madmen mentioned in the series?[/quote']

 

I don't recall it being mentioned any where other than the BWB. One point as a 3rd continent roughly equal distant from the mainland as Seandar, and the second as a sidebar a few pages later. Considering how the Seafolk are the only ones that know about it, and they avoid it at all costs, they inhabitants could easily have killed themselves off long ago and no one would know.

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It's to the south of the mainland, and was, i believe mentioned once briefly in the main sequence books by an Atha'an'miere. Mostly information about it comes from the BWB

 

Concider this also, we know that there are roughly around a 1000 sparkers born to each generation (there are about 4000 seanchan damane altogether including those left in seanchan, they live a long time, which would boost the overall numbers, and Seanchan is more densely populated--and that is only women) i think that saying 1000 is a good rough estimate, but whatever. now if 3/4 die, that still leaves 250 men. In the last 20 years the Tower has gentled--was it 24? including the ones that are sealed to the flame--and we've heard only one story of a men going insane and channeling and so on.

 

Now admittedly, some of these men likely never had enough control to manifest in an obvious way--Rand's portal stone experience shows its possible for men who can channel to go completely undetected for their entire lives--but it thats the case why havn't we seen more of them at the Black Tower? The books are very specific about Narishma being the only sparker aside from Taim, Logain and Rand. Even the Aes Sedai remark on how just fifty years ago far more men with the ability were found. Culling doesn't work that fast in a species.

 

And what about the women? The Kin don't accept wilders, and there are by no means 250 sparkers going to the White Tower...

 

 

Altogether i'd say the Dark must be definately be gathering channelers, wether or not they are gathering them in the Land of the Madmen... which i think they are.

 

As for the Light being in trouble... You saw how much a group of channelers shift the balance in KoD. I find it simply impossible to concider that the Dark could win against a foe that has that many channelers. There is too much strength and brilliance on the side of the Light--especially since the light has regained control of the seanchan empire, and, by all indications will soon have an alliance between Rand and Tuon. The rest of the lands are all mobilized and ready, all you need to do is meld Rand and Tuon and the Light will be too powerful for the Dark to defeat--concider the Choedan Kal, Callandor, that wand sa'angreal and all the others held in the tower.

 

Even were the Dark to attack in this very instant, the end victory would be the Lights. Altogether RJ's comment is unwarrented... unless there is some form of eaulity between the number of channelers on each side, in which case the balance shifts back in the favour of the Dark and it does make sense.

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i think the dark has a srump card hidden up its proverbial.

and it going to be huge...recruits from the land of madmen would fit this, the other 5 gholams could be another or even heaps more channalers than anybody...ever...suspected.

we shall see....and i'm sure it will be good

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I don't know that gholam would be all the much of a trump... deathgates would likely work on them, and lightning and simply throwing stuff at them... they may be bad, but they arn't going to win the war. Still, your right about the trump card.

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i dunno, 6 golam would make excellent assasins; before TG let a couple loose in the tower and AS are history before they even realise what is happening

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Guest cwestervelt

Slightly of topic but Luckers discussion on "sparkers" made me think of a rather ironic thought...

 

For the most part, the White Tower scorns people who manifest the Talent to channel without being taught. Since they prefer to wait for people to come to them, they either get those that already started channelling, and go there to lear more (Wilders). In many cases, the ones that will start channelling on their own will do so before they are considered adults, so they can't make the trip to Tar Valon. That means those that come to the Tower before ever Channelling are more likely to be those that need to be taught but would never Channel on their own. That means that almost all of Luckers "sparkers" would end up as "Wilders" thus making them second class citizens of the Tower. A less extreme version of the Seanchan honoring Suldam and leashing Damane but the division is still present.

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I don't know that gholam would be all the much of a trump... deathgates would likely work on them' date=' and lightning and simply throwing stuff at them... they may be bad, but they arn't going to win the war. Still, your right about the trump card.[/quote']

 

 

The 6 gholam would make a HUGE trump card for the DO. They cant be touched by weaves. They arent hurt by regular weapons. The only thing that has hurt the one we've met is Mats' ter'angreal. Just those 6 alone are going to do alot of damage to the forces of Light.

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I believe that the whole, Land of the Madmen-being-a-continent-of-channeling-madmen-and-women is just ridiculus :?

 

A whole continent of mad channelers...

that's just stupid...

 

wouldn't just be convenient for the Dark to have this huge arsenol to use :) ...

no....

 

RJ may be trying to hurry up and finish this last book, but i doubt very seriously if he would use THAT as his trump card...

 

the Gholams...

that would be very useful to the dark, but i agree, not enough to win an war...

 

I don't believe that the seanchan will oppose Rand either...not much longer atleast...

 

Mat is one of Rand's Best friends,

Mat's Wife is Tuon, emperess in all but name...

 

It is very possible that the Seanchan Prophecies of the Dragon were right...

 

Rand may very well bow before the emperess at the time it is needed...

as long as that emperess in Tuon and Rand and her have come to some kind of an agreement(I doubt that will happen but it is possible)

 

Even the Seanchan must realize by now that TG is comeing and all nations must unite against The Dark...

 

 

Shara will unduobt fully fight in TG also..

Either they will do it on there own, they are big enough to do that...

or they will team up with rand and they will all fight...

 

I also believe that Rand has made one big mistake in taking almost ALL of the Aiel out of the Waste...

 

TG will breakout the whole way across the Blight, who will be there to guard the Blight that goess over the Waste?

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The Land of the Madmen being a place where both men and women wander around channeling and destroying indiscriminately comes direct from the guide. I too belive it seems a bit... far fetched, which is why i suggest that it is a specifically generated rumour.

 

As for the rest of what you said... im not really sure how any of it impacts on what i suggested may be happening. Im not even sure how the above does either.

 

As for the Sharans. I doubt it. The Ayyad are the power in Shara, and we know they stand in the light via the rumours of them asking about the Dragon Reborn and the like. You may get a couple of darkfriends from shara, but that would take some time to introduce. If male channelers from the Aiel Waste pop up, we could make the connection. If random Randland channelers pop up, all it would take is a Taim POV---or hell, we could still make the connection. But if random channelers that we've never encountered and dont know pop up... it'd just stretch the bounderies of credulity. The Aiel Instant Army was bad enough, and RJ took a whole book to deal with that. This would just be... bad writing.

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Grendel has introduced the Sharans into the Series, and i've often wondered If they are part of the DO's hidden agenda.(Sammael in Shara & not slain by Mashadar would be an excellent coup).

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Shara!!!! Did you people even read the series? Shara lost the Trolloc Wars. Rhuarc says they were... infested. This does not seem a light aligned place to me.

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Shara!!!! Did you people even read the series? Shara lost the Trolloc Wars. Rhuarc says they were... infested. This does not seem a light aligned place to me.

 

Um. I think you yourself need to re-read it.

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i don't know about it saying that it was "infested", but i do know that it said that Shara claims to have no problems with the blight during the Trolloc Wars...

 

This is undoubt a lie, but, the guide shows us that Shara is Nearly as large as all of Randland and if a country united that big can't hold it's own in a war, they're pathetic...

 

But they have channelers on thier side so they can't be too useless...

 

and, by the way, no Male Channelers will just "pop-up", because all Aiel Male Channelers are either killed, or they go on a solo mission to fight the DO at SG.

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Shara claimed to have been one land in peace since the Breaking, and that not even the Trolloc Wars bothered them. Rhuarc was commenting on this, because the Trolloc Wars DID bother them. They did no, however, overun the sharans or anything like that.

 

Incubate, the whole point of my post was a commentry on the male aiel issue, amongst other things. I appreciate your comments, but did you even read my post?

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hehe

 

i did but,...

 

I didn't actually understand what you where saying until i read it a third time and thought about it a moment...

 

 

oops :oops:

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Some random thoughts on the subjects. I'm working from memory here, so forgive me any inaccuracies.

 

Ishamael. I seem to remember there's indications he was mostly appearing in people's dreams earlier, and not necessarily physically. Perhaps he hasn't been physically free for twenty years. Though he has surfaced at intervals, like the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing's rise, I think he didn't have a physical presence at the time of the Aiel war yet. But I also think he must certainly have been doing something all this time, other than the occasional harassing of people we've seen and the mad evil laughter and the killing of rats. Also, he must certainly have put Moghedien and Lanfear to some useful tasks, and we've scarcely seen either since they were trapped.

 

Shara. I think we've heard of trouble there, a civil war or the like. Also, Graendal removed both their rulers, puppets or no, breaking the chain that had gone on for however long. I don't think the Shadow has forgotten them entirely.

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Nope, he physically put Alviarin's predessesor into a ter'angreal to die. Well, you know, he probably channeled her in, but he was personally there.

 

Thats a good question about what Cyndane and Moggy have been up to--they arn't placed amongst any known political group like the others, so what have they been doing. Cyndane certainly seems to be organising something, from what we saw in Winters Heart when she felt the Choedan Kal.

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