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Verin's "Mistake" - Dragon Reborn - Spoiler warning...


Rab Coplin
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Yes. Verin, who we know to be between 122 and 140.

 

Verin's age is not guesswork, Merana states that she had been Aes Sedai ten years the day Alanna was born. Alanna was born between 46 and 50 years ago. Merana states that Verin was as much older than Merana as Merana was than Alanna. Merana spent eleven years in training and would have been at best 20 when she approached the Tower. Thus, Merana is around 41 years older than Alanna, and is between 87 and 91 years of age. Verin in turn is 41 years older than that and is between 128 and 131.

 

There are a few other things, like Verin or Merana may have gone to the Tower young, so i broadened the scope, but Verin is not more that 140 years of age.

She either began graying at a bizarrely young age, Merana misremembered, or RJ made a mistake.
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And how very Verin to consider a captive Forsaken "useful". 

 

Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne considered Moghedien useful.

Rand considered Asmodean useful.

 

Did Eggy, Nyn, and Elayne think of Moggy as useful prior to capturing her? (They were terrified of her.)  Was Rand's capture of Asmo for his usefulnes? (No, it was set up by Lanfear).  I'm not actually implying anything here other than Verin's immediate response to a battle with a Forsaken is to consider the use that said Forsaken could be put to.  Not fear; just calculation.  She's a cold one.

 

That is true.  Verin, though, did show fear once Graendal struck back.  I think that as she was in a circle, with plenty of allies around, she felt more confident than usual.  Certainly I would.  Once she found about Graendal already holding the power and her strenght, the situation changed.

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Yes. Verin, who we know to be between 122 and 140.

 

Verin's age is not guesswork, Merana states that she had been Aes Sedai ten years the day Alanna was born. Alanna was born between 46 and 50 years ago. Merana states that Verin was as much older than Merana as Merana was than Alanna. Merana spent eleven years in training and would have been at best 20 when she approached the Tower. Thus, Merana is around 41 years older than Alanna, and is between 87 and 91 years of age. Verin in turn is 41 years older than that and is between 128 and 131.

 

There are a few other things, like Verin or Merana may have gone to the Tower young, so i broadened the scope, but Verin is not more that 140 years of age.

 

She either began graying at a bizarrely young age, Merana misremembered, or RJ made a mistake.

 

I believe there's something wrong there, as well. Very just SEEMS so much older and experienced, not even considering the gray hair!

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Honestly, I think RJ screwed up somewhere with Verin. She's an early-introduced character, and probably sort of a "Cadsuane 0.5", and then at some much later point we became able to calculate her age. But SHE doesn't think of herself as young/middling-age, from any internal POV I've seen.

 

Yes, I think the Shaidar Haran 0.5 comment is a coverup too, but that's a different thread.

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Was Rand's capture of Asmo for his usefulnes? (No, it was set up by Lanfear).

Lanfear earlier gave him the idea, but Rand needed to figure out how to get a teacher not connected to the DO.  Rand severed his connection to the DO so he would have no choice but to help Rand.  Lanfear's shield actually hindered the training since it made Asmo too weak to show Rand some weaves.

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Was Rand's capture of Asmo for his usefulnes? (No, it was set up by Lanfear).

Lanfear earlier gave him the idea, but Rand needed to figure out how to get a teacher not connected to the DO.  Rand severed his connection to the DO so he would have no choice but to help Rand.  Lanfear's shield actually hindered the training since it made Asmo too weak to show Rand some weaves.

He could have shown him more if he wanted to. After all Soriela was able to show Cadsuane the weave for traveling even though she was no where near strong enough to make it work.
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Doubt Asmo held back too much since his life depended on Rand winning. It's possible since he was shielded and not just weak in the power, hindered him even more. 

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I hope nobody flames me for making Harry Potter analogies, but Verin reminds me a lot of Severus Snape. It wasn't until towards the end of the last book that we learned about Snape's true colors, and I doubt we'll know Verin's for sure until near the end of AMoL.

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Just on the forsaken point (at the cleansing) wouldn't a darkfriend think chosen rather then forsaken.

 

To me Verin seems the most dangerous AS to Rand but also the most helpful.  She has spent her entire life convincing people to underestimate her an attitude no other AS has adapted so far, they tend to deal from strength with the might of the WT behind them, and her skills as a manipulator seem unparalleled, she manipulated Amys and Sorrila.  She also seems to have gained Cadsuanes respect, no mean feat.

 

On a side note movement often seems to be associated with power. Cadsuane moves so quickly that other sisters struggle to keep up yet Verin just rolls along side her unnoticed.  A metaphor for their respective styles prehaps; Cadsuane: Powerful, blunt and to the point.  Verin: unseen, building momentum one step at a time , her seventy year plan certainly suggest that she not only has the patience but that this is a preferred mode of operation. It would be interesting to see where and how Moraine would walk in comparison to Cadsuane and Verin.

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He could have shown him more if he wanted to. After all Soriela was able to show Cadsuane the weave for traveling even though she was no where near strong enough to make it work.
Unless it works differently for men and women.
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Moridin HAS helped Rand in the past, and his motives have not always been in lockstep with The Dark One's.

 

Mmm, I agree with Hybrid's comment--Moridin aids Rand in Shadar Logoth, but that was more to do with Sammael than Rand. Beyond that the no-kill order was a function of his attempts to turn Rand to the shadow, which was done at the Dark One's command.

 

Makes sense, turn Rand to the shadow then even if the Shadow loses this particular fight there is no more Dragon to fight him.

 

Though i would disagree with Hybrid on one point.

 

The second part, I disagree with.  Ishamael/Moridin is the one Forsaken who has always both understood the Dark One's intent and worked to further the Dark One's goals, not his own.

 

By all comments in the book the Dark One sanctioned Rand's death, yet Moridin re-issues the no-kill order after he becomes aware of the link. I reckon that was probably plain old self-protection... though you never do know.

 

She either began graying at a bizarrely young age, Merana misremembered, or RJ made a mistake.

 

Some people start greying young. I know a kid from school whose hair started to receed at sixteen.

 

That being said we don't actually have any really solid statements on exactly when an Aes Sedai begins greying--only that it implied that the Aes Sedai was older.

 

What i can say is that your second two options are unlikely. The detail RJ went into in that scene, the exact numbers and associations he mentions--i doubt he made a mistake, he would have been all to cautious considering. And Aes Sedai hierarchy is based on these things, so i don't see Merana being mistaken.

 

I believe there's something wrong there, as well. Very just SEEMS so much older and experienced, not even considering the gray hair!

 

She seems mature, which so few of the Aes Sedai do. Consider though that in lifespans that span this sort of time thats entirely possible... after all, Bair of the Aiel is considered one of the strongest Aiel Wise Ones, and comes accross as very old and experienced, yet she's only seventy.

 

At 140, Verin has all the experience she needs. The major distinction seems to be whether she was able to learn from that experience. Most Aes Sedai cannot.

 

Age does not imply wisdom, nor does youth imply its lack. It all depends on experience, and what is learnt from those experiences.

 

He could have shown him more if he wanted to. After all Soriela was able to show Cadsuane the weave for traveling even though she was no where near strong enough to make it work.

 

Or, as is more likely given that Asmo had clearly thrown his lot in with Rand (by his own POV), men cannot form weaves they don't have the strength to create, whilst women can.

 

On a side note movement often seems to be associated with power. Cadsuane moves so quickly that other sisters struggle to keep up yet Verin just rolls along side her unnoticed.  A metaphor for their respective styles prehaps; Cadsuane: Powerful, blunt and to the point.  Verin: unseen, building momentum one step at a time , her seventy year plan certainly suggest that she not only has the patience but that this is a preferred mode of operation. It would be interesting to see where and how Moraine would walk in comparison to Cadsuane and Verin.

 

Somewhere between. Moiraine does not bully people, like Cadsuane, but nor does she allow them to ignore her, like Verin. Moiraine remains a mystery--unknown, uncomfortable and powerful. Consider her meeting with the Aiel Wise Ones were she plays with language to put them off balance....

 

She is the ultimate manipulator, the ultimate player Daes Da'mar.

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He could have shown him more if he wanted to. After all Soriela was able to show Cadsuane the weave for traveling even though she was no where near strong enough to make it work.

 

Or, as is more likely given that Asmo had clearly thrown his lot in with Rand (by his own POV), men cannot form weaves they don't have the strength to create, whilst women can.

 

I do agree with the possibility that Asmodean held back, however, I believe it was stated that Asmodean was a poor choice for a teacher.  I'm suprised no one has brought that up in this thread yet.  On the capability to show someone weaves if you're a male or female and of lesser strength than the requirement I can neither agree or disagree.

 

 

Somewhere between. Moiraine does not bully people, like Cadsuane, but nor does she allow them to ignore her, like Verin. Moiraine remains a mystery--unknown, uncomfortable and powerful. Consider her meeting with the Aiel Wise Ones were she plays with language to put them off balance....

 

She is the ultimate manipulator, the ultimate player Daes Da'mar.

 

I absolutely agree with this.  Moiraine is/was portrayed as being a very nimble manipulator.  ;)

 

 

As to Verin's age, I'll also have to agree on the numbers for the same reasons as Luckers.  I'm pretty sure RJ thought that exchange through.

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By all comments in the book the Dark One sanctioned Rand's death, yet Moridin re-issues the no-kill order after he becomes aware of the link. I reckon that was probably plain old self-protection... though you never do know.

 

Ah, good point.  It's been a while since I last reread the later books.

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Anyways on topic, I like this idea a ton. No evidence to back it up but it would be a very Verin type thing to do in my opinion.

 

http://wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=175

We do know that the Black Ajah has a hand gesture with which they can identify each other, even in public:

 

    The woman held her hands at her sides, but with thumbs thrust hard between the first two fingers.

 

    - Lord of Chaos, To Heal Again

 

If this gesture were used too often, however, it would be a security risk. Speculation: non-Black Aes Sedai have accidentally given this sign or copied this gesture in the past and found themselves in contact with a Black sister. Perhaps Verin did this over 70 years ago, when she last made a serious mistake (The Path of Daggers, Prologue).

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Honestly, I think RJ screwed up somewhere with Verin. She's an early-introduced character, and probably sort of a "Cadsuane 0.5", and then at some much later point we became able to calculate her age. But SHE doesn't think of herself as young/middling-age, from any internal POV I've seen.
How old does she think of herself as being?

 

Yes, I think the Shaidar Haran 0.5 comment is a coverup too, but that's a different thread
Why?
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How old does she think of herself as being?
Twelve... no, wait... at least a sophisticated fourteen.
Are we talking years or decades?
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We are talking relation to boys. She still considers them her friends, but she's old enough to consider the time she might actually try to kiss one.

 

At least fourteen.

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Honestly, I think RJ screwed up somewhere with Verin. She's an early-introduced character, and probably sort of a "Cadsuane 0.5", and then at some much later point we became able to calculate her age. But SHE doesn't think of herself as young/middling-age, from any internal POV I've seen.
How old does she think of herself as being?
I'll have to come back to this one, as I don't have the books in front of me. But I'm pretty sure she never thinks "Oh, I'll have to defer to her because she's soooo much older than me." It's more of an absence-of-evidence thing...

 

Yes, I think the Shaidar Haran 0.5 comment is a coverup too, but that's a different thread
Why?
I'll reply in SH's thread (I know this isn't Structured Discussion, but it's really off-topic).
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I have to admit, two things have convinced me 100% that Verin is not of the Black Ajah (1-her reference to the Forsaken instead of the Chosen at the cleansing, and 2-her being seen praying over Kumira, for her soul...we don't actually hear the prayers, but it clearly states praying for her soul).  Thanks for pointing out the first, (sorry, I don't remember who), and I found the second while reviewing the first. I must now admit to Lucker's mastery (fancy that), but still look forward to finding out what she really is up to.  I have previously discussed the possibility that she has logically decided that freeing the DO is the proper course of action; this explains all of her actions including getting Rand to TG in one (sort of) piece.  My confidence is shaken, though, so that could be wrong. I do think that Verin is beyond defering to an AS because they are older or even more powerful; she holds many of the "rules of conduct" in obvious disdain, and I'm sure she sees these as counter productive ways of behavior, from a logical point of view. 

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I can understand Verin's and Cadsunae's disdain for the current system. It's ridiculous for more experienced AS to defer to the less experienced just because they are weaker in the power. In fact im surprised the tower has survived for so long with such a poor leadership structure.

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

We are talking relation to boys. She still considers them her friends, but she's old enough to consider the time she might actually try to kiss one.

 

At least fourteen

UNQUOTE

 

That made me laugh out loud, and my boss found out I was on the internet haha.

 

I also agree that strength should have nothing to do with the structure of the White Tower, it makes it seem too much like a "pecking order" rather than an actual leadership structure. I like the idea that Verin accidentally contacted the Black Ajah, but if she had done so by accident she would either have been found out and killed, or fooled the Black Sisters she contacted into thinking she was Black so they wouldnt kill her. It does seem like a stretch, but Verin if anyone is the one person that would be able to pull it off without it being spoilt if you know what I mean

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Indeed, of the women channeling societies, the Aes Sedai are really the only ones to rank by strength (that we know of).  Likely, this hierarchy system resulted from the days of the Breaking, when the strongest Aes Sedai were generally those from the Age of Legends (and therefore among the most experienced and most proficient).

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Indeed, of the women channeling societies, the Aes Sedai are really the only ones to rank by strength (that we know of).  Likely, this hierarchy system resulted from the days of the Breaking, when the strongest Aes Sedai were generally those from the Age of Legends (and therefore among the most experienced and most proficient).

 

Well historically, Physical (upper body) strength has frequently been a significant criterion for determining a leader -  especially in small groups.  This is considered the primary way that Men have generally dominated Women throughout history.

 

I would well think that the WT would have started the same.  A relatively small group of women - say a few hundred go together.  Assuming that non of them really stood out domineering wise then the one that was strongest with the One Power, would easily have ruled.  She would have thought "Well I'm stronger than all the rest.    If they don't do what I say, I will just "shield" them until I get my way."    Sure the others could have joined together to "beat" her, but she might well have had others that agreed with her.  Whatever the case, it probably became the WT standard after that.

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True.  If there was no difference in terms of experience and wisdom, then the strongest would be the leader.  And once the precedent was set, the Aes Sedai weren't likely to change it.  After all, their view of tradition is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

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