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Rab Coplin

Verin's "Mistake" - Dragon Reborn - Spoiler warning...

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Indeed it does.  For the DO to break free, the DR must be at TG (lots of initials here), and that is one of the main reasons that I can't dismiss Verin's possible affiliation with the Dark.  I've read Lucker's reasons many times, and while they are as usual thourough and well thought out, I find plenty of room in all of these situations for a different interpretation.  I've listed them before, so won't do so again - this is truly a case of RAFO, and I may feel like an idiot after AMoL, but it won't be the first (or last) time.  I agree with wvlr - I find Verin one of the most compelling characters in the series (along with Eggy, to the consternation of my son-in-law).

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Personally, she's one of my favorite as well, and I personally believe that she has good intentions....however, as I mentioned in my prior post, I am slightly guarded because the door has been left open for her to be evil  ;)

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hi ppl every one dismisses verin as DF but there is one thing that every one keeps forgetting "let the lord of chaos rule "hasn't DO told forsaken to stay out of rand's way

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1. All the mystery that RJ intentionally built around her character

 

Personally, as i layed out, i reguard each of those Verinisms to have actually been in Rand's benefit--but irrespective, her mystique does not serve to suggest that she is black--which is ruled out by her PoVs.

 

2. We've already seen one Black Sister act on Rand's behalf and swear fealty to him and do everything in her power to see him, as we think, succeed, when in fact it was out of her BA selfishness to see him get to the Last Battle so that the DO can defeat him once and for all. We finally realize that in WH during that sister's POV (i forget her name, but she's the White Sister that sword realty to Rand) Maybe Verin isn't so different?

 

You are speaking of Elza--who was a green, by the way--who was compelled into supporting Rand. Furthermore the method with which she was compelled was one which required her to develop a rationale in her own mind for doing what she was compelled to do.

 

3. There seems to be something very ominous about her 70 year mistake. Until we know what that was, we cannot rule anything out.

 

Well, yes we can. We can rule out that she is a black sister, because her PoV's do that. Beyond that Verin did not make a mistake seventy years ago. Verin has been working towards something for seventy years. The mistake was Cadsuane's.

 

4. RJ could have very easily provided us with the type of concrete evidence that we have from so many other main characters (Thom, Moiraine, The Wonder girls, poeple that Min has viewed), yet he has gone out of his way to give us those assurances- this leaves a very intentional gray area.

 

What grey area precisely? That Verin is mysterious is obvious. Her goals, and reasons are definately left grey--but her alleigence to the light he has portrayed.

 

On another note- when is the last confirmed time that Min has had a viewing of Verin? I just finished rereading all of the books except the last one which i'm starting tonight, and I cannot recall. 

 

No, never.

 

hi ppl every one dismisses verin as DF but there is one thing that every one keeps forgetting "let the lord of chaos rule "hasn't DO told forsaken to stay out of rand's way

 

He did not tell them to compel his Aes Sedai to serve Rand, he did not tell them to plan to kill Cadsuane and stop only upon learning how she planned to help Rand. He did not tell them to think to themselves on the value and benefit to the light that capturing a Forsaken may allow.

 

Verin's actions are not that of a darkfriend.

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Had Verin been a DF she could of killed Rand long ago, when he was helpless at end of book 2 for instance.  She could of told of Moraine and Siuan.  But she has been doing everything to see the prophicies fulfilled.  Like her 5 ride forth, she easily could of told them all to go thus seeing the phrophecy ruined and possibily Rand dead. She knows where the horn is hidden and who blew it, she could of seen Mat die and blew it herself or given it to the forsaken.  Had she been a DF she would of gone ahead and poisoned Cas.

 

She is mysterious and doing things for her own reason but she is hardly a DF.

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While I fundamentally agree and personally also suspect that Verin is not a DF, until and unless someone can show concrete evidence that unequivically shows that she is not a DF, we cannot rule anything out. Just because she hasn't killed Rand, Matt or some other Ta'veren character, doesn't prove anything. We dont even know what her agenda is, so assuming that the death of someone would be part of it would be speculation. So far, the only proof that has been provided in these posts or prior ones is what we've seen from her POV's in her helping Rand arrive safely to TG. Continuing to state that she seems to be helping him isn't proof. We still do not know what her motives are and we also have not seen her make any sort of direct reference against the DO and his plans from a FP-POV stand-point. We have clearly seen every other character that has had the type of impact on the overall progression of this storyline that Verin has at some point indicate their alliance openly in their POV's by either renouncing the DO, reflecting on how/why the plan on disturbing the DO's plans, etc. If someone wants to provide "proof," find a quote from Verins POV where she unquestionably either renounces the DO, indicates her intent to disrupt his overall plans to destroy the Dragon Rebord in the Last Battle, or her desire to see him actually win TG....not just arrive there.

 

.....You won't find it. What you will find, however, is a lot of inuendo and a TON is circumstancial evidence that points to the fact that she's helping him without the smoking gun. And without the smoking gun, we cannot 100% confirm that she is not a DF with her own agenda.

 

The fact that Min hasn't viewed her is also very interesting since she has viewed pretty much every other Aes Sedai that is actively invovled in "helping" Rand.

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The only one that I can think of that seems to cross the line on her not being a Black it her thought at the Cleansing "A shield, she decided.  A captive Forsaken might prove very useful."    (This is the same one Luckers mentioned a few posts above)

 

Sure you could say that - according to her agenda - this could be seen as another "Grey" statement.    But it does really seem unlikely that if she was a Black, that she would want to capture a Forsaken for Rand and company.

 

 

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But it does really seem unlikely that if she was a Black, that she would want to capture a Forsaken for Rand and company.

Agreed.  We have already seen the Darkfriend view of the Forsaken, and no Darkfriends from the Third Age have contemplated usurping, killing, or capturing one.  Even Elza, who is now a fanatic trying to see Rand alive to the Last Battle, cannot make herself kill a Forsaken.

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Well Liandrin considers it, but from her her envy and desire to replace her is clear. With Verin her consideration that a captive forsaken would be useful--not to her alone, as with Liandrin's desire, but to Rand because had she captured a forsaken within that circumstance she would have ended in Rand's hands--and given that she would have known that, her thought therefore shows she genuinely wanted to capture a forsaken in order that it be useful to Rand.

 

Not the thought of a darkfriend.

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Except that she didn't try to capture the Forsaken; she merely considered the utility of doing so.  For whatever reason, she decided it wasn't a good idea.  When Verin's actions and POVs are considered with the base assumption that she is pro-Light, they can be explained that way.  When viewed as pro-Dark, or neutral, different explanations present themselves.  The DO wants Rand to be at TG; therefore, actions by those of the Dark that understand that goal will lead to Rand's being aided in that direction.  If an intelligent DF (almost an oxymoron) understands that goal, they wouldn't take every opportunity to murder Mat or Perrin; they wouldn't compel AS to impede Rand; they wouldn't poison someone whose goal is to help Rand get to TG.  If this is Verin's goal, and she found that Cadsuane was fighting that, she would have poisoned her.  Verin is coldly logical, seemingly unruled by emotion.  In this, she is unlike any of the known DFs, and that throws us off.  DFs, in general, as a group are self motivated, using their commitment to the Dark to promote themselves - not necessarily out of a commitment to the base cause of the DO.  The lack of knowing Verin's motivations is intentional, and I will be surprised if my interpretation is wrong. 

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Except that she didn't try to capture the Forsaken; she merely considered the utility of doing so.  For whatever reason, she decided it wasn't a good idea. 

 

What? She tries to capture Graendal and fails. The shield rebounds because Graendal was already holding the source, and with her angreal was too powerful for the circle to shield.

 

When Verin's actions and POVs are considered with the base assumption that she is pro-Light, they can be explained that way.  When viewed as pro-Dark, or neutral, different explanations present themselves. 

 

No they don't. There is not alternate explanation to Verin's actions with Graendal--she decides that capturing her would be useful, knowing full well that capturing her would leave her Rand's prisoner--hence she felt that getting Graendal under Rand's power would be useful.

 

There is no 'pro-Dark' explanation for that.

 

The DO wants Rand to be at TG

 

Actually that's Elza's assumption--her mental twisting to explain away helping Rand, which she was compelled to do by Verin. The reason the Shadow avoided killing Rand is because the Dark One wants him turned to the shadow.

 

If an intelligent DF (almost an oxymoron) understands that goal, they wouldn't take every opportunity to murder Mat or Perrin; they wouldn't compel AS to impede Rand; they wouldn't poison someone whose goal is to help Rand get to TG.  If this is Verin's goal, and she found that Cadsuane was fighting that, she would have poisoned her.  Verin is coldly logical, seemingly unruled by emotion.  In this, she is unlike any of the known DFs, and that throws us off.  DFs, in general, as a group are self motivated, using their commitment to the Dark to promote themselves - not necessarily out of a commitment to the base cause of the DO.  The lack of knowing Verin's motivations is intentional, and I will be surprised if my interpretation is wrong. 

 

That's not the Dark One's goal. And i don't think your logic makes sense--certainly a person acting under that idea (which again Verin is not) would not compel Aes Sedai to impede Rand, but why would they compel them to aid Rand. Seeing Rand to TG might make sense had Verin believed that premise (which she does not) but seeing him to TG with a dedicated army at his back...?

 

And those Aes Sedai are dedicated to his victory directly as a result of her compeling. Only Elza rationalizes it with the thought that she is only seeing him to TG so that he can die, the rest want him at TG to win.

 

The same goes with Cadsuane. A darkfriend acting under that idea (which Verin is not) might consider killing Cadsuane whilst they are uncertain of the danger she represents him, but they certainly wouldn't hold back upon learning that she intended to make him more capable. The threat in that issue was that cadsuane might mean Rand harm, learning that she intended to arm Rand to fight the Dark One would be a reason to go forward with the poisoning.

 

I mean, Moridin is a true believer, unlike most darkfriends acting because he believes in the Dark One's victory--and yet i dont see him compelling Aes Sedai to aid Rand against the shadow, or refraining from killing women dedicated to equiping Rand for his

 

She is not a darkfriend. Her PoVs are mysterious, but that doesn't mean they don't show her loyalty to the light. You don't know what she's down, but she's not doing it for the shadow.

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I'm really not attempting to convince you, Luckers; your interpretation of events, given the starting point, is inescapable.  You may be right.  I just don't see the bedrock basis that you do.  The argument (discussion) is almost circular.  (Verin could have just as easily killed Graendal after shielding her, having decided it was too risky to keep her alive.  Or she could have been intending to use her knowledge and power for her own interpretation of the needs of the Shadow).  BUT - you are certainly right in one regard; she may not be Dark.  She may not be Light, either - she may just be Verin, with a goal of her own.  My points are raised to give word to my doubts about her.    I trust this will all be revealed.  As I've said before, it is one of the biggest anticipations for me in AMoL.  I don't think that this story line will disappoint.  If you are 100% correct, I will bow to your knowledge and interpretive skills.  (Or even 90% correct.) 

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Haha. Fair enough.

 

 

Though, because i can't leave a point unspoken--because, you know, im a twat (aka obsessive compulsive), Verin could have hardly have been intending to kill Graendal--her thoughts proscribed her intentions, which were that Graendal be made useful as a captive. She would have thought 'pretending to capture Graendal could be useful in making me seem important, but i must kill her before she compromises the shadow.'

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/Even Elza, who is now a fanatic trying to see Rand alive to the Last Battle, cannot make herself kill a Forsaken

 

It isn't that she can't make herself kill a Forsaken, she just didn't know that Osan'gar WAS a Forsaken; she was under the assumption that he was just a renegade Asha'man, and in fact did kill him. 

 

She also stated that Rand had to get to the Last Battle, and surely if she ended up killing a Forsaken in the middle of getting him there, the Dark One would understand - so it seems like if the means to kill a Forsaken is available she would use it; just as Liandrin thought her group would be enough to overpower Moghedien.

 

Elza did kill a Forsaken, she just didn't realize that's who she was killing.

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/Even Elza, who is now a fanatic trying to see Rand alive to the Last Battle, cannot make herself kill a Forsaken

 

It isn't that she can't make herself kill a Forsaken, she just didn't know that Osan'gar WAS a Forsaken; she was under the assumption that he was just a renegade Asha'man, and in fact did kill him. 

 

She also stated that Rand had to get to the Last Battle, and surely if she ended up killing a Forsaken in the middle of getting him there, the Dark One would understand - so it seems like if the means to kill a Forsaken is available she would use it; just as Liandrin thought her group would be enough to overpower Moghedien.

 

Elza did kill a Forsaken, she just didn't realize that's who she was killing.

 

True, but she was much more reluctant to kill the Forsaken than Dashiva, who, to her, was only an Asha'man.  My point is that Elza thought the Dark One might understand, but she was still reluctant to do so.  The fact that none of the Forsaken except Osan'gar/Dashiva died points towards that.

 

Liandrin is an anomaly.  Out of her group of 13, she was the only one who felt the need to usurp Moghedien, despite the fact that her 13 would have an excellent chance of overpowering her.  None of the other Black Ajah or Darkfriends consider acting against the Forsaken.

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And how very Verin to consider a captive Forsaken "useful". 

 

Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne considered Moghedien useful.

Rand considered Asmodean useful.

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Indeed, Liandrin considered the possibility of taking Moghedian so that she could hand her to another Chosen useful too. Considering capturing a Forsaken does not ensure that a person is not a darkfriend.

 

The point is more the implications of just how Graendal would have been useful--specifically, that she would be useful to Rand, where Verin knew she would end up should she have actually captured her.

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Indeed, Liandrin considered the possibility of taking Moghedian so that she could hand her to another Chosen useful too. Considering capturing a Forsaken does not ensure that a person is not a darkfriend.

 

The point is more the implications of just how Graendal would have been useful--specifically, that she would be useful to Rand, where Verin knew she would end up should she have actually captured her.

 

Did Verin specifically think useful to Rand, or just ... useful? I can't recall, now.

 

Has anyone been able to find a POV of Verin's where she clearly indicates she is NOT DF? Can anyone point to a specific Book & Chapter?

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Cadsuane is 295 years old, and Verin is somewhere between 132 and 140. (note, if you got your numbers off the FAQ, they are wrong due to a misprint of Cadsuane's thoughts reguarding Alanna's age.)

 

2. Corianin's Notes. You all know what i think they contain. Verin conciders destroying them, and then she conciders giving them to Egwene. The reason she conciders destroying them is obvious. Questioning the Tower, directly acting against its best interest and in the interest of a man who can channel is against both Law and custom, it would see her stilled. But why does she concider giving them to Egwene?

 

 

Verin's hair is graying, do we know of any Aes Sedai how isn't at least near 200 that has graying hair?

 

No idea what you think they contain.  ??? Can you elaborate?

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Verin? Darkfriend? Lolwut?!

 

Verin clearly struggles her way around the Oath against lying when she 'questions' Beldeine. If she is not bound to that Oath, why struggle and not just say what she wants to say without thinking of it? Why would the thought that what she was saying was circumventing the Oath even cross her mind, if the need to circumvent said Oath was not present?

 

Verin is bound by the Oaths. The only evidence against that, the point about Moiraine sending her, is not only easily interpretable as evasion, but is also perceived by other Aes Sedai as such - if not, why didn't Moiraine come straight out and accuse her? No, Moiraine was suspicious of Verin's intentions, not that she was a Darkfriend.

 

So, an Oathbound Aes Sedai. Admittedly, that doesn't neccessarily mean she is no Darkfriend at heart - she would not need to associate herself with the Black Ajah to aid the Shadow, and as long as she didn't, she could swear not to lie on the Rod and say "I am not of the Black Ajah", and all suspicions against her would be lifted - unless more intensive questioning was employed, at least. So there's a case that Verin's a non-BA Darkfriend. It doesn't make much sense, since an unbound Aes Sedai could better serve the Shadow, Black Ajah or not, unless Verin belongs to an order of Darkfriend Aes Sedai specifically made to look as if they are not Black Ajah when questioned in the way Pevara and her company did to suspected Darkfriends. This is too overly complicated to just pop up in the last book though, with so many BA POVs so far, including Alviarin, who must at least be aware of that 'order'.

 

But most importantly, everything Verin has ever done is justified as and happens so that it serves the Light and the Dragon Reborn. Elza's actions serve the Dragon Reborn, but are justified as a means of ensuring the Dark One's victory. Same goes with many characters who serve one side or the other, but explain their actions as serving a different goal. We've had many Verin POVs, but not in one is it implied that she serves some goal other than the stated one.

 

As for the seventy-year-old project and the unhealed scratch. We know there are things that can cause wounds that cannot be cured. We know of two - the taint in Shadar Logoth and what is presumably a True Power-wrought weapon or attack. There might be others. In Tel'aran'rhiod, something may have happened that caused one of these wounds. It's all more possible there, as the Wise Ones have implied on occasion. Nothing special to see there. The seventy-year-old project, we have no means of uncovering right now, but we know it doesn't serve the Shadow due to all the above.

 

There's simply no case for Verin being a Darkfriend, and strong case against. That settles it in my view.

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Did Verin specifically think useful to Rand, or just ... useful? I can't recall, now.

 

No, but as has been stated many times in this thread, Verin was a part of a link therefore had she captured Graendal there was no chance of her hiding the woman--therefore Graendal would have ended up under Rand's authority.

 

Verin would have known this. Thus, her concideration that a captive forsaken would be useful includes these, therefore she considered Rand having Graendal captive would be useful.

 

Verin's hair is graying, do we know of any Aes Sedai how isn't at least near 200 that has graying hair?

 

Yes. Verin, who we know to be between 122 and 140.

 

Verin's age is not guesswork, Merana states that she had been Aes Sedai ten years the day Alanna was born. Alanna was born between 46 and 50 years ago. Merana states that Verin was as much older than Merana as Merana was than Alanna. Merana spent eleven years in training and would have been at best 20 when she approached the Tower. Thus, Merana is around 41 years older than Alanna, and is between 87 and 91 years of age. Verin in turn is 41 years older than that and is between 128 and 131.

 

There are a few other things, like Verin or Merana may have gone to the Tower young, so i broadened the scope, but Verin is not more that 140 years of age.

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I mean, Moridin is a true believer, unlike most darkfriends acting because he believes in the Dark One's victory--and yet i dont see him compelling Aes Sedai to aid Rand against the shadow, or refraining from killing women dedicated to equiping Rand for his
While I agree with you 100% that Verin cannot be a DF (struggling to get around her oaths proves that, if nothing else), this particular line of logic is spurious. Moridin HAS helped Rand in the past, and his motives have not always been in lockstep with The Dark One's.

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Moridin HAS helped Rand in the past, and his motives have not always been in lockstep with The Dark One's.

In response to the first part of your statement, I agree that Moridin has helped Rand in the past.  However, I argue that it is the effect of his actions, not the cause.  Moridin, when helping Rand in Shadar Logoth, was not so much acting for Rand as he was acting against Sammael.

The second part, I disagree with.  Ishamael/Moridin is the one Forsaken who has always both understood the Dark One's intent and worked to further the Dark One's goals, not his own.

 

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And how very Verin to consider a captive Forsaken "useful". 

 

Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne considered Moghedien useful.

Rand considered Asmodean useful.

 

Did Eggy, Nyn, and Elayne think of Moggy as useful prior to capturing her? (They were terrified of her.)  Was Rand's capture of Asmo for his usefulnes? (No, it was set up by Lanfear).  I'm not actually implying anything here other than Verin's immediate response to a battle with a Forsaken is to consider the use that said Forsaken could be put to.  Not fear; just calculation.  She's a cold one.

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