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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
RAND AL THOR

Mat vs Galad and Gawyn

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

No he's not using the power at the time

UNQUOTE

 

You see whenever Rand assumes the Void he also embraces Saidin, almost every time, which grants the heightened senses we all know about, so technically while he isnt channeling he is using the Power.

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You see whenever Rand assumes the Void he also embraces Saidin, almost every time, which grants the heightened senses we all know about, so technically while he isnt channeling he is using the Power.

 

No, he is not.

The void has nothing to do with the power, it is just a tool for heightening the concentration, which happens to be of great help for beginner channelers.

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Not exactly correct. For males, they need to assume to void to even sense Saidin. Now, as they advance more with seizing saidin, the moment between and assuming the void and seizing is lessened and lessened, before they finally seem like the same moment. You can see this during the beginning books when Rand is able to assume the void yet can't grasp saidin whenever he wants.

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

No, he is not.

The void has nothing to do with the power, it is just a tool for heightening the concentration, which happens to be of great help for beginner channelers.

UNQUOTE

 

You disagree with the first words, yet the rest of your post agrees with what I said more or less. Yes, the void and the power arent connected in anyway, but Rand uses the Void to help him grab Saidin, which was my original point. And the majority of the time when he is sword fighting he holds Saidin, which is why when he is wounded it feels like another mans pain

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I think Maj was trying to say that the Void is quite often used for men in the way that the flower is for women. Whereas women use the flower to open themselves up to Saidar, and Men also often find it easier to use Saidin by using something like the Void, or the Oneness, or whatever you want to call it.

 

But in the past, before channeling became second nature to him, Rand already used the Void - both Tam and Lan used it and he learned it first from Tam before Moiraine even appeared.

 

These days however yes I agree, most of the time whenever he assumes the Void, he also grabs Saidin but I think that is more to do with the fact that it heightens his perceptions / senses, and he understands the benefit of that when he is fighting, regardless of whether he is fighting with Saidin or steel.

 

I think we do still see him using it in Far Madding when he's fighting Rochaid / Kisman / whichever one it is, where he cannot channel.

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Mat has always had multiple memories (of at least 1 lifetime) even though he doesn't recall it often. You see this at least twice before multiple memories are added. First when he shouts the old battle cry, and second when he curses the aes sedai that are healing him.

 

Iirc in the fight Mat also mentions a lucky hit which makes sense because he has the dark one's own luck at that point. As for staves vs swords; just play soul caliber a few times and you can see some of the advantages =). It can have issues against armor of course. I always classify mat as skilled a fighter as any of the other main characters before and after he had memories added; at least in the same league over the time period. A childhood on a farm can make you more adept at polearm type weapons than a few months learning the sword.

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Guest Dreadlord

The funny thing is neither Galad or Gawyn tried to chop the staff in half, although the fight was over before either had chance to even launch an attack

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The funny thing is neither Galad or Gawyn tried to chop the staff in half, although the fight was over before either had chance to even launch an attack

 

When a staff is spinning there is NO way you can chop in in half

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Consider first Mat's natural quickness, and the fact that he has probably been wielding a quarterstaff for most of his life. Then consider that he was underestimated by both of his competitors. Further, while the two may have been very skilled with dealing with sword-to-sword combat, neither had any experience combatting a quarterstaff. That's not something to be lightly factored. To properly combat a quarterstaff, one must be twice as quick as the wielder, as the two ends of the quarterstaff make it possible to parry a blow and counter it all in an instant. As "42Bonzo88" said, Gawyn was the first, and he attempted to fight Mat solo, so when Mat first defeated him he made the odds much more in his side. And I don't believe that the "ta'veren-ness" is only in effect when people are falling from heights or dice is rumbling in his head. Ta'veren-ness isn't turned on and off. It's always there, and to suppose that it didn't have any effect on the fight seems preposterous.

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And I don't believe that the "ta'veren-ness" is only in effect when people are falling from heights or dice is rumbling in his head. Ta'veren-ness isn't turned on and off. It's always there, and to suppose that it didn't have any effect on the fight seems preposterous.

 

RJ did not quite agree...

 

You might say that ta'veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally.

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The funny thing is neither Galad or Gawyn tried to chop the staff in half, although the fight was over before either had chance to even launch an attack

I belive that they were useing practice swords in the fight and they were described as loose laths of leather or something like that.  So they couldnt have cut his staff in half.

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Yeah, it's hard to cut wood in half with leather...

 

Plus neither of them really saw the attack coming.  They didn't know anything about fighting against a person with a staff, so they were completely shocked and overwhelmed when Mat came at them.  Plus, a staff has two ends to fight with, while a sword only has one.  And I personally have experience with staff fighting (we call them bos though), and it is much faster because of it, but I think it takes a bit more coordination to pay attention to both ends at once.

 

BTW, Dreadlord, I don't know if someone mentioned this already, but did you know we have a Quote button?  It might make it easier for you rather than writing out "Quote" all the time.  Just a thought ;)

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And I don't believe that the "ta'veren-ness" is only in effect when people are falling from heights or dice is rumbling in his head. Ta'veren-ness isn't turned on and off. It's always there, and to suppose that it didn't have any effect on the fight seems preposterous.

 

RJ did not quite agree...

 

You might say that ta'veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally.

 

In that case, I humbly retract my statement. All I can say is that if his ta'veren-ness was affecting the fight, then it was definitely affecting the fight. Lol.

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I think i have the answer to this dilemma. When the fight happens it's just as Mat begins his first ever unbeaten Gambling streak. I don't think RJ put the fight in to say staffs beat swords and Gawyne and Galad need to remember that. the main thing to keep in mind is that the fight was a bet. I think it was a result of Mats' unique Ta'verenous (the gambling) and to show readers just how lucky Mat is against the slimmest odds when he betting on it. The dice roll in his head when he bets on anything not just cards and dice. Like in TFoH when Mat is betting people that he can hit a table leg in midair with a knife while blindfolded, if he weren't betting he'd never make that shot, and if Mat had not had money riding on the fight Gawyne and Galad would have given him the beating of a lifetime.

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I think i have the answer to this dilemma. When the fight happens it's just as Mat begins his first ever unbeaten Gambling streak. I don't think RJ put the fight in to say staffs beat swords and Gawyne and Galad need to remember that. the main thing to keep in mind is that the fight was a bet. I think it was a result of Mats' unique Ta'verenous (the gambling) and to show readers just how lucky Mat is against the slimmest odds when he betting on it. The dice roll in his head when he bets on anything not just cards and dice. Like in TFoH when Mat is betting people that he can hit a table leg in midair with a knife while blindfolded, if he weren't betting he'd never make that shot, and if Mat had not had money riding on the fight Gawyne and Galad would have given him the beating of a lifetime.
Mat's luck and his ta'veren-ness are not the same thing. And why wouldn't he be able to make the shot unless he was betting? And Mat had already been shown to be an extremely lucky gambler - that's why Hurin stopped dicing with him on the road to Tar Valon. There is no dilemma - as was pointed out in the immediate aftermath of the fight, the greatest swordsman ever only ever lost to a man with a staff. So it's not unreasonable to expect RJ to be making the point that a staff can beat a sword.

 

In that case, I humbly retract my statement. All I can say is that if his ta'veren-ness was affecting the fight, then it was definitely affecting the fight. Lol.
To which the only possible response is that if his taveren-ness wasn't affecting the fight then it definitely wasn't affecting the fight!

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The dice roll in his head when he bets on anything not just cards and dice. Like in TFoH when Mat is betting people that he can hit a table leg in midair with a knife while blindfolded, if he weren't betting he'd never make that shot, and if Mat had not had money riding on the fight Gawyne and Galad would have given him the beating of a lifetime.

 

Except of course its not just a bet that makes Mat' luck manifest. Its the randomness of the activety. Thus while Tom is unwilling to play dice with Mat he is quite willing to bet on a game of stones because "Skill" is much more important in stones the dice. Now fencin (even fencing between a swordsman and a person with a staff) is much closer to stones (the skill of the particepents is of great importance) then dice playing. So the fight is not an indication of Mat's "random" luck.

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Exactly, RJ even makes a point in the book to say Mat was the best quaterstaff fighter in the two rivers besides Mat's father.  I thought it was cool that he also mentioned that Rand was the best archer in the Two Rivers, but that was only a side note. 

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Exactly, RJ even makes a point in the book to say Mat was the best quaterstaff fighter in the two rivers besides Mat's father. I thought it was cool that he also mentioned that Rand was the best archer in the Two Rivers, but that was only a side note.
Wrong on both counts:
TEotW,Ch1 - Tam is the best archer in Emond's Field.

TDR,Ch24 - Tam wins the Emond's Field quarterstaff competition if Abell Cauthon does not.

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Mat learned from one of the two best staffmen in the Two Rivers, so it stands to reason that he would become an awfully good staffman himself.

 

I think it isn't really fair to compare the fight to a game of Stones, because random chance does factor into a fight more than into a game of Stones.

 

A better comparison would be when Mat was betting on the horse races outside of Ebou Dar, since the outcome of a horse race depends on both luck and the skills of the individual horses. Of course, Mat had learned quite a bit from his father about judging horses as well, but that makes the comparison even stronger.

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Mat started learning to use the staff from the time he could walk but Galad and Gawyn did not start to use the sword until they were 10yo (this age comes from New Spring where it stats that Lan started from when he could walk but other boys started at 10)so as you can see he stared before them and was taugh by 2 masters his farther and Tam al`Thor

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Look, if I'm really skilled at wii tennis cause I play it a lot, and I challenge Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal to a game of doubles with me and another guy who plays wii tennis a lot, I might not beat them, but my experience and their experience definitely comes into play a lot, don't you think?

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It's a possibility there was a bit more than Mat's experience with a staff.

Wasn't he using a staff when he, later on, fought a High Lord in the Stone? IIRC, the guy stumped Mat.

 

I get the feeling that Galad and Gawyn were not too serious about the whole thing. In any case though, my money would be on a guy using a staff if he faced a swordsman.

 

Unless that swordsman is fighting with two swords.

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It's a possibility there was a bit more than Mat's experience with a staff.

Wasn't he using a staff when he, later on, fought a High Lord in the Stone? IIRC, the guy stumped Mat.

 

I get the feeling that Galad and Gawyn were not too serious about the whole thing. In any case though, my money would be on a guy using a staff if he faced a swordsman.

 

Unless that swordsman is fighting with two swords.

 

Didn't Mat take out multiple swordsmen and high lords though? The one that gave him trouble did show that if you know how to defend against a staff you stand a much better chance though. If anything those fights proved Mat knew how to usea  staff quite well before he had memories implanted. At least considering he was fighting off defenders of the stone that had more training that the 2 brothers did.

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Few things to clear up.

 

First off, the staff's a poor choice as a weapon of war, although it's a superb choice as a self-defensive weapon.

 

You have to be very, very good to kill someone with a staff (throat shots), or you have to beat them to death. One doubts they'd cooperate.

 

Whereas a sword just needs to cut one of the important squishy bits. Important squishy bits are all over- nearly the entire torso, and in each limb (major arteries).

 

Hence the traditional popularity of handing a farmer a spear- he's used to using staffs and staff-like tools. Give it a stabby end, and he too can cut things. Even better if well-trained.

 

Staff weapons also, as a rule, need a lot of clear room to use, making them a poor choice for the battlefield.

 

That said, in an arena where the staffman has room, and it's not to kill, one-on-one with a swordsman I'd generally back the staffman. Far greater range, torque provides far greater force to the blows, and it is, as mentioned, incredibly easy to block and counterstrike with the reversed end.

 

What was important about that fight to me was Mat showing the underpinnings of his later-demonstrated mastery of warfare. Psychology (reading the two of them), misdirection (knowing what he could do despite being sick), and seizing the tactical initiative (eliminating one opponent swiftly after having goaded him, allowing him time to deal with the more dangerous of the two on his terms).

 

Add to that the fact Mat was trained by his father in the use of the quarterstaff, and that his father is the master of a fairly large pastoral region where everyone knows the staff for self-defense as a matter of course, and comparing to some of his later fights- how often are we told Fades are dangerous to fight, and how does Mat deal with one? He keeps it on the constant defensive, that's how (gotta love Mat and his Han Solo moves)- you see that he's actually quite well-trained. Willing to bet he's quite talented with the bow, as well, and wonder if the fact he's been frustrated in creating one means it'll come in useful against the unsuspecting 'Finns.

 

Recall, it's not his "battle knowledge" that makes him great with his ashanderai. He himself comments that it's almost just like a quarterstaff with a stabby end.

 

Regarding the Stone- Mat a) Didn't want to kill anyone if he could help it, especially nobles, and b) The Stone is a building, and hence he would have been constricted and the High Lord advantaged by the limited room.

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