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Guest Fire Lord

Rand, dreamwalker?

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Guest Fire Lord

Hi every one, I've been lurking around for quite some time, though I had an account here before but I don't know what hapenned to it.

Anyway,my question relates to something I'm sure I've seen around, but I didn't get a satisfying answer.

In the Dragon Reborn, both Egwene and Perrin stumble on Rand in the Dream World ( Tel'-something. I suck in spelling the Old Tongue)

I'm quite positive it was no ordinary dream, and Rand was there for quite some time, not like ordinary dreamers who just brush the Dream World. And, though it's possible, I don't think he was there in the flesh, and I think he also mentions that it was a dream.

My question is, is Rand a dreamwalker? I'vent seen any mention of it in the books. Besides, most if not all of the Forsaken seem to be able to access the Dream World very easily.

Another thing, in the Eye of the World, Rand also gets a view of Shayol Ghul (sp)-I could be wrong about that- and the White Tower while he has never been there. Any explanation for that?

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Hi every one' date=' I've been lurking around for quite some time, though I had an account here before but I don't know what hapenned to it.

Anyway,my question relates to something I'm sure I've seen around, but I didn't get a satisfying answer.

In the Dragon Reborn, both Egwene and Perrin stumble on Rand in the Dream World ( Tel'-something. I suck in spelling the Old Tongue)

I'm quite positive it was no ordinary dream, and Rand was there for quite some time, not like ordinary dreamers who just brush the Dream World. And, though it's possible, I don't think he was there in the flesh, and I think he also mentions that it was a dream.

My question is, is Rand a dreamwalker? I'vent seen any mention of it in the books. Besides, most if not all of the Forsaken seem to be able to access the Dream World very easily.

Another thing, in the Eye of the World, Rand also gets a view of Shayol Ghul (sp)-I could be wrong about that- and the White Tower while he has never been there. Any explanation for that?[/quote']

 

Ishy was messing with his dreams at that point. I think that's probably it.

J

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in tDR i dont ishy was messing with rand's dreams at that point but in tEotW he was pulling rand,mat,and perrin into the world of dreams to talk to them in shayol ghul. so it is possible rand is a dreamer and the shield he weaves over his dreams is to strong for him to go back into the world of dreams, but that is just speculation

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Didnt Rand at one point learn how to step directly from the normal world to Tel'aranrhiod? Think he learned that when chasing one of the forsaken he ended up killing.

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yeah by entering it without being asleep or entering it by means of using the OP but he didnt know how to do it when he was in the dream for the first 3 books

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I'm with the muppet. ;)

 

I'm pretty sure that was Ishy messing with his dreams. He was doing everything he could to throw Rand off balance and catch him at his weakest. I think that Ishy was pulling Rand into T'A'R and then doing the same with the Darkfriends and Shadowspawn he was sending after him.

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Guest Thom Merrilin

ishy did do many things with his dreams, that is for sure, like when each Mat, Perrin and he had the dream about him saying, "oh, so thats who you are?" or something like that in tEotW, when they were in Baerlon.

 

But, when egwene fell across him by his fire in some book or another and he thought that was another trap from a forsaken, he was obviously in tel'aran'rhiod, because egwene was, at the time, and she was jumping around, from perrin with his wolfbrother acces to the dream world, to other random places.

 

But my point is, it very well seems Rand might be a a dreamwalker, since when he was in the dream world at the time, there weren't any forsaken around who pulled him in.

 

Thats all the light i can shed on the matter.

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It's a while since I've read the scene in question, but you should also bear in mind that not every time you see someone in Tel'eran'rhiod (probably written wrong) are they actually there.

 

Perrin for one often sees flashes of scenes on the sky, which are often glimpses of whats happening to his friends. And of course Egwene has her prophetic dreaming ability. That usually happens in her own dreams rather than Ter'eran'rhiod- but it's possible she might get occasional flashes while she's there.

 

In short, I don't think Rand can walk the dreamworld except when he is pulled there by the forsaken, or if he makes a gateway there and enters in the flesh.

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It's a while since I've read the scene in question' date=' but you should also bear in mind that not every time you see someone in Tel'eran'rhiod (probably written wrong) are they actually there.

 

Perrin for one often sees flashes of scenes on the sky, which are often glimpses of whats happening to his friends. And of course Egwene has her prophetic dreaming ability. That usually happens in her own dreams rather than Ter'eran'rhiod- but it's possible she might get occasional flashes while she's there.

 

In short, I don't think Rand can walk the dreamworld except when he is pulled there by the forsaken, or if he makes a gateway there and enters in the flesh.[/quote']

 

Yeah, doesn't he have enough going on? he can't have every ability in the world. It seems pretty clear that he hasn't been in TA'R except when pulled there in early books, or when he chooses to go there in the flesh. he's never fallen asleep and willed himself there. That's pretty much Egwene's special ability (and the few other minor characters who can do it).

J

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I'm rereading TSR right now, and I just read the part where Egwene begins her lessons on Dreaming from the Wise Ones. Bair says to her:

 

To enter the dream too completely, though, is to lose touch with the flesh; there is no way back, and the flesh dies. It is said that once there were those who could enter the dream in the flesh, and no longer be in this world at all. This was an evil thing, for they did evil; it must never be attempted, even if you believe it possible for you, for each time you lose some part of what makes you human. (The Shadow Rising, Chapter 23 Beyond the Stone)

 

Now we KNOW that Rand does enter TAR in Fires of Heaven in the flesh, do you think that doing this somehow lead to him losing part of his humanity? Did this have that kind of effect?

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I highly doubt it. I think the reason it's regarded as evil is because you have so much more power over anyone in TAR if you're there in the flesh versus there in the dream and old dreamwalkers probably used it to pull people into TAR

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Guest Winespring Brother

I've thought about this as well for a while. It seems probable that in the first 2 books it is Ishy pulling Rand in tel'aran'rhiod, and from the end of book 3, not 5, we see Rand is able to step into tel'aran'rhiod while awake. Remember, he chases Ishamael through the world of dreams while they battle in the Stone of Tear.

 

But the scenes we see during the the Dragon Reborn are different. He is clearly in tel'aran'rhiod, because both Perrin and Ewgwene see him, not just as flashes in the sky. Egwene channels at him and he cuts her weaves, and he hits Perrin with a lance of flame, giving him a scar.

For the whole of this book, Ishamael is trying to kill Rand. He has given up on converting him. So why would he just pull him into tel'aran'rhiod and then leave him there? Why leave him sitting around a camp fire which is the reflection of where he really is in the waking world, when he could drag him to Shayol Gul or somewhere else bad?

I think there is two possibilities. One is that Rand has the ability of a Dreamwalker, a possibility that is not that difficult to imagine considering who he is. Its likely the shielding on his dreams he now uses keeps him out of the dream world.

The second possibility is that Lanfear or maybe be'lal was pulling him in. She is possibly the only forsaken who doesn't want him dead at all, and Be'lal is trying to lure Rand to Tear. They both want him to take Callandor, and we see that when Egwene meets Silvie (lanfear) in the Stone in tel'aran'rhiod that Lanfear is keeping watch over Rand's dreams just about every night. Be'lal also put images of the super girls in a cage into Rand's dreams to strenghten the bait. So pulling Rand into tel'aran'rhiod could just have been their way of making him feel more hunted and hurry to Tear.

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Guest Thom Merrilin

EXACTLY! Thank you, I admit I never thought of Lanfear or Bel'al, but I thought it pretty obvious that if he were to be sitting there with no forsaken around that possibly he went there himself.

 

I thank you for writing it clearer, with more thought then i put in it. Besides Fire Lord and Dragon89, everyone seems to forget the part when he was just sitting by his fire, being chased by Moiraine and comp.

 

Also, Fire lord, you mentioned the White Tower in Rand's dreams. That, I am positive was from Ishamael, or some other dark force, because I remember near the end of the dream a voice entered his head and and said something like "Is that where you'll go?"

 

And for Jedimuppet, your right too, he DOES have alot going on, it would be weird if he was a dreamwalker, although it seems it might be possible, unless RJ reveals some thing in the books that allows you too occasionally stay in Tel'aran'rhiod for extended periods of time without being a dreamwalker.

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Well, he does have that dream of Egwene leaving and the trio coming. That was before he even thought of that. Also, if he was brought into TAR by a Forsaken, they would have leaped ath the chance to kill Perrin or Egwene. They don't want to convert them. They wouldn't have stood idle.

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Moiraine comments on the dreams of channelers being stronger then other dreams, drawing others in to have the same dream, and with Rand being a ta'veren of such strength the effects are likely doubled. There is no reason that this couldn't be in Rand's dreams, only Egwene and Perrin wandered in by accident. Remember that at that stage SOMEONE was screwing with Rand's dreams, it may be he was brought into a constructed dream by them, and attracted Perrin and Egwene... we know thats possible.

 

Also, this is early in the progression of the books... its possible RJ hadn't yet established fully the nature of dreamwalking and all that.

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Guest Thom Merrilin

Luckers, you are right about what moiraine said, but isn't that affected by physical distance? I remember that a little before Egwene walked in on his dream(I don't remember Perrin doing that, although he probably did, what I remember was Egwene walking in on perrin's) he was with the shienaran's, and many were sharing his dreams of callandor, and they were all nearby.

 

At the time, I think Egwene was fairly far away wasn't she? Or at least she wasn't as close as Moraine and company, although I feel it was farther then that. The way I see it, is that even if he is a channeler who pulls people into dreams, and being ta'avern triples that, Egwene would not have been able to be pulled in.

 

On your point of RJ perhaps not having perfect rules about dreamwalking at the time, I believe that is possible. He is hunman after all, no matter how many books he writes, or how many people idolise him.

 

Deathblade, I do not understand your first sentence. Who is in the "trio"? Are you talking about when Moiraine Perrin and Lan were folowing him?

 

And about Perrin and Egwene, I do not think the forsaken knew about them in the dream, or any dreams around that time. Also, perrin had is wolfy friends to help him out. Wow, I keep writing minor essays...

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Guest Fire Lord

Thanks guys,that clears it up a bit, though I will not overlook the possibilities of Rand being able to enter the World of Dreams asleep. Like I said, look at the Forsaken. Do you think Lewis Therin knew how to? That is, assuming being reborn doesn't affect the talents he had in the Age of Legends.

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Guest cwestervelt
Luckers' date=' you are right about what moiraine said, but isn't that affected by physical distance? I remember that a little before Egwene walked in on his dream(I don't remember Perrin doing that, although he probably did, what I remember was Egwene walking in on perrin's) he was with the shienaran's, and many were sharing his dreams of callandor, and they were all nearby.

 

At the time, I think Egwene was fairly far away wasn't she? Or at least she wasn't as close as Moraine and company, although I feel it was farther then that. The way I see it, is that even if he is a channeler who pulls people into dreams, and being ta'avern triples that, Egwene would not have been able to be pulled in.

 

On your point of RJ perhaps not having perfect rules about dreamwalking at the time, I believe that is possible. He is hunman after all, no matter how many books he writes, or how many people idolise him.

 

Deathblade, I do not understand your first sentence. Who is in the "trio"? Are you talking about when Moiraine Perrin and Lan were folowing him?

 

And about Perrin and Egwene, I do not think the forsaken knew about them in the dream, or any dreams around that time. Also, perrin had is wolfy friends to help him out. Wow, I keep writing minor essays...[/quote']

 

Perrin and Egwene were both in Tel'aran'rhiod proper, not the intermediate state. If Egwene was floating among the other dreams, it would be conceivable to pull her in, like happened with Gawyn, but the Rand encounter doesn't fit that pattern. Also, she would not have gotten away as easily, probably would not have survived if she was actually drawn into Rand's dream. With her lack of training, he would have had total control even without any knowledge of what was going on.

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Deathblade' date=' I do not understand your first sentence. Who is in the "trio"? Are you talking about when Moiraine Perrin and Lan were folowing him?

[/wrquote']

 

Sorry, I don't thibk outside my own head sometimes. I was referring to the dreamk where he is swimming naked with the three of his girls, Egwene sees him and runs away. That's before that possibility comes up.

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Guest Winespring Brother
Well' date=' he does have that dream of Egwene leaving and the trio coming. That was before he even thought of that. Also, if he was brought into TAR by a Forsaken, they would have leaped ath the chance to kill Perrin or Egwene. They don't want to convert them. They wouldn't have stood idle.[/quote']

 

Its clearly not true that Lanfear would have leapt at the chance to kill Perrin or Egwene in tel'aran'rhiod, because she meets both of them there! She meets Egwene in the Stone, disguised as old fat Sylvie, and she comes to Perrin's dreams offering him glory, and Perrin goes to her white place in tel'aran'rhiod, and she says something like "You! What are you doing here? You'll ruin the plans" and then she sends him away.

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Guest Thom Merrilin

Winespring brother, you never seem to say something that can be contradicted. Since I remember those things happening, then I guess Lanfear would have done nothing, although there are other forsaken.

 

cwestervelt, that is true and I hadn't thought of that, but when luckers posted about channelers dreams being stronger, and that might be what he thought pulled egwene in, I think he was confusing facts, or now I do.

 

When moiraine said channelers dreams were stronger then others, I remember now that all that did is perhaps force others to share their dream, not take an active role in it, just have a normal dream, as if they were the one whose dream was forced upon them. Like when all the shienarans had the same dream that rand was having of getting callandor.

 

does anyone disagree with that?

 

Oh, deathblade, thank you dont worry about it, I do it all the time, and I have to force my full thoughts out to be sure im understood.

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Perin & Egwene did come across Rand in Tar... Rand had left the camp in the Mountains of Mist after the Trolloc attack and was moving towards Tear & Callandor. He was being tormented by (one or more of) the Forsaken to either turn him to the shadow or kill him. What I think happened (and we've all got to guess this part) is that Rand got pulled into Tar by one of the Forsaken in order to (probably) kill him but perhaps just to torment him, unsettle him, unhinge him?. As we al know - if you die in Tar then you die in the real world.

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Guest Winespring Brother
Winespring brother' date=' you never seem to say something that can be contradicted. Since I remember those things happening, then I guess Lanfear would have done nothing, although there are other forsaken.[/quote']

 

:wink: That's because I never say anything original. I just quote what happens in the books, which I have read so many times that I can remember just about everything anyone says or does. It doesn't make for very interesting post from me :lol:

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When moiraine said channelers dreams were stronger then others, I remember now that all that did is perhaps force others to share their dream, not take an active role in it, just have a normal dream, as if they were the one whose dream was forced upon them. Like when all the shienarans had the same dream that rand was having of getting callandor.

 

We do know that there is a certain physical proximity required for the effects of a channelers dreams to be potent... that being said, it was not Rand's dream that connected itself with Egwene and Perrin, their ability to dreamwalk did that.

 

Concider this, if the effect of Rand's dreaming is like a miasma around him, you would have to be within this miasma to be effected--for most people this means physical closeness, but dreamwalkers can move through the world mentally... it is possible that Egwene and Perrin's minds wandered within the effected area.

 

That being said it was never my intention of indicate that Egwene and Perrin were drawn in by his dream, but that it was clear that his dream was escaping his mind into Tel'aran'rhiod. We know this is possible, Egwene mentions people who were having nightmares when they touched tel'aran'rhiod, and those nightmares escaping into the dream world. I was suggest that Rand, as a channeler, ta'veren and man whose dreams were likely being toyed with to a certain extent, this effect could have been greatly strengthened.

 

Rand was not dreamwalking, as such, but then again, he was. Like most other people he can dream his way into tel'aran'rhiod to a small degree. Only the strength of the effect his presense in tel'aran'rhiod is greatly increased. I suspect what we saw took place both in his mind, his dream, and in the world of dreams all at once.

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