Amyrlins and Keepers - questions

[Elgee]

I thought of something today, that I hope the clever coves around here will be able to shed some light on (if this hasn't been discussed already).

 

There are a few questions, actually, so here goes:

 

1) Amyrlins are chosen for Life?

2) The different ways they could "vacate" their position: Natural death, accidental death, murdered, deposed ?

3) Depending on what the case is most often, how long would the choosing of a new Amyrlin take?

4) The new Amyrlin would most often not know she is being called to serve until she is summoned by the Hall (unless she is a Sitter who is present at the discussions ?).

5) The Amyrlin chooses her Keeper?

6) If so, how long does she have to pick one? (ie must she do it immediately, or does she have a few hours/days/weeks to think about it?)

7) All AS are members of an Ajah, except the Amyrlin and Keeper.  Let's say one of them was Head of Ajah, they would no longer be included in the discussion of any Ajah matters, for instance the picking of a new AH ?

 

 

[Luckers]

1. Yes.

2. Yes. Though perhaps it would be possible to step down as Amyrlin. Old Amyrlin's must surely have reached the stage of retirement.

3. There are increasingly strict laws about how long the Hall can deliberate of the choosing of a new Amyrlin. By Moiraine's account in New Spring i would guess no more than two weeks.

4. In Siuan and Egwene's case, yes, but both were anomalies. In normal situations those that were raised Amyrling would know, and likely would have fought for it--certainly Cadsuane knew enough to flee the Tower to avoid it.

5. Yes. And her Mistress of Novices.

6. All we have to go on is Egwene's account wherin she picks hers the day she is raised. She implies this is custom, and we all know how Aes Sedai stick to custom--so, the day they are raised.

7. Most Amyrlin would know they were trying to be chosen, and as such would have given concideration. The key roles of a keeper seem to be administrational, so that would likely be the key.

8. Indeed, they would not.

 

[Elgee]

Luckers, you are a marvel!  :D

 

We've been "debating" this matter at the RP side for a while now, till I hit on the bright idea of asking here - I thought you might be able to answer it much faster than it would take us to track down the correct answers, but you surprised even me with your speed  ;D

[CUBAREY]

One small point. While the Amerlyn is of no Ajah (and thus from all), the Keeper is still a member of her Ajah. Keeper were a narrow Shawl in the color of their Ajah.  Interestinly she has divided loyalties, she is still a member of her Ajah but is the Administrative right hand of the Amerylin. It is for this reason that keepers are usually not only from the Amerlyn's old Ahah but also personaaly close to the Amerlyn before she is raised.

 

[Elgee]

I was wondering about that.  In the later books, Tarna (the Keeper) goes to the Red Sitter to discuss bonding Ashaman, and they work closely together on that.  It suggests to me that the Keeper is still involved in Ajah affairs.

[nosscire]

I don't agree. The keeper is not of an Ajah, no more then the Amyrlin. The stole is only there as a reminder of where she came from.

 

I base this is something from the second book (TGH), when Siuan and a bunch of Aes Sedai come to Shainar.

The red ajah didn't want them to bring a blue sister, becouse they already had Siuan and her keeper, which would make 3 of them, something Siuan considers rubbish. The Keeper only serve the aAyrlin.

 

This kinda defies the point that the Keeper would still be a part of her old Ajah.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

The stole is only there as a reminder of where she came from.

 

 

What need for a remainder? Keepers are almost always choosen from the Amerlyns old Ajah. Plus, is the Keeper is indeed only beholding to the Amerlyn isn't wearing a stole showing her "old" Ajah misleading, pointless and/or counter productive?

 

Moreover, the rubbish in the red plan was that it not only wiped away the obvious fact that the Keeper was not neutral but instead had an inherent interest to side with the blue sisters. Moreover the rubbishness went to the fact that the Amerylin herself was being viewed as a blue.  The Keeper retains her membership in her Ajah but because of her close relationship to the Amerlyn is deemed to be following the directions of the Amerluin not her Ajah.  This is just one of several complicated, contradictory attributes of the Keeper. Remember she is deemed to be very powerful but in fact has no De-jure power and her influence comes from her role as the Amerlyn's link to the sisterhood. Moreover, the Keeper is an integral part of the Hall but has no vote in their deliberations.  In summation the Keeper is neither Fish Nor Fowl and both at once.

[Asmo]

Well, considering the fact that the most Amyrlins had come from the Blue Ajah and the least from the Red, that kinda explains why the Reds were bitter over Siuan. IIRC, the Keeper retains the ability to use the eyes-and-ears of her old Ajah? (while the Amyrlin has her own) and that may be a point to identify her.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I don't think the Keeper is still considered a part of her former Ajah, however I don't think she's as strictly cut out as the Amyrlin herself.

 

The Keeper maintains a stole which gives one colour, the colour of the Ajah from which she was raised.  The Amyrlin's stole (traditionally) has all seven colours on it, signifying that she is of all the Ajahs and of no Ajah.  She is the Amyrlin Seat.

 

The Keeper probably doesn't have access to all the information of the eyes and ears of her former Ajah because what prevents her from just handing that information over to the Amyrlin Seat?  So probably the Ajah Head discusses what the Keeper is allowed to know and what she is not, even if it is the Keeper's Ajah.

 

Tarna came to discuss bonding Asha'man because Elaida would not, and I think it had a little to do with Tarna being Red but something to do as well with Tarna realizing that Elaida would not do what was best for the Tower.  This makes me think that it's possible the the Keeper is allowed a closer relationship with her former Ajah than the Amyrlin Seat would, but I really don't think the Keeper is still considered a Blue, or a Red, or whatever.

[Mr Ares]

Luckers,...you surprised even me with your speed  ;D

Isn't that what his boyfirend said?

[Luckers]

One small point. While the Amerlyn is of no Ajah (and thus from all), the Keeper is still a member of her Ajah. Keeper were a narrow Shawl in the color of their Ajah.  Interestinly she has divided loyalties, she is still a member of her Ajah but is the Administrative right hand of the Amerylin. It is for this reason that keepers are usually not only from the Amerlyn's old Ahah but also personaaly close to the Amerlyn before she is raised.

 

The Keeper is no longer of her ajah. That is made clear at the very first by Siuan during the scene with Moiraine in tGH and then reinforced countless times. The stole serves as a mark of honour only.

 

I was wondering about that.  In the later books, Tarna (the Keeper) goes to the Red Sitter to discuss bonding Ashaman, and they work closely together on that.  It suggests to me that the Keeper is still involved in Ajah affairs.

 

Technically, what Tarna does is quite inappropriate. Not that that stops most Aes Sedai, just don't mistake it form normal interaction.

 

What need for a remainder? Keepers are almost always choosen from the Amerlyns old Ajah. Plus, is the Keeper is indeed only beholding to the Amerlyn isn't wearing a stole showing her "old" Ajah misleading, pointless and/or counter productive?

 

It's more than a reminder, its a mark of honour for the Ajah. The White's reaction to Alviarin losing the stole shows this. Nevertheless the Keeper is seperate. That's fact.

 

The rest of that sentented was kind of confusing... no idea what you said.

 

Quote from: Elgee on May 10, 2008, 08:15:17 AM

Luckers,...you surprised even me with your speed 

Isn't that what his boyfirend said?

 

Size. He said size. But if you wish to continue playing, I have photos.

 

 

.... I'm a bad, bad person.

[Elgee]

i could make a poem of that ... but i don't think i should *attempts innocent look*

 

;D

[Alexius]

One other question about deposed Amyrlins- it seems that deposed Amyrlins aren't always stilled- there's one whom Siuan warns Egwene about who was apparently murdered in her sleep in exile after the discovery of a plot to reinstate her.

So what sort of crime can get an Amyrlin deposed without being serious enough for her to be stilled, or can they be deposed for incompetence? I always thought an incompetent Amyrlin would just end up a puppet of the Hall.

 

Incidentally, Red Ajah Amyrlins seem to coincide with worldwide catastrophes, and always mishandle them.

Tetsuan, Trolloc Wars, betrayed Manetheren.

Bonwhin, Hawkwing/War of Hundred Years, got Tower into war with Hawkwing

Elaida, enough said...

[DemandredFO]

Don't forget too, Bonwhin had "help" from Ishamael in causing the disaster with Hawkwing, not excusing her, just saying.

[Alexius]

Don't forget too, Bonwhin had "help" from Ishamael in causing the disaster with Hawkwing, not excusing her, just saying.

Elaida also has "help" from Alviarin, and Forsaken/BA may have been involved with Tetsuan, it's just too far back for anyone to know.

[General Cauthon]

Ishamael was also around during the trolloc wars, he might have given Tetsuan a little push in the wrong directions....

[Luckers]

One other question about deposed Amyrlins- it seems that deposed Amyrlins aren't always stilled- there's one whom Siuan warns Egwene about who was apparently murdered in her sleep in exile after the discovery of a plot to reinstate her.

So what sort of crime can get an Amyrlin deposed without being serious enough for her to be stilled, or can they be deposed for incompetence? I always thought an incompetent Amyrlin would just end up a puppet of the Hall.

 

Well, remember that Shein Chunla was not entirely at fault in those events. She began by trying to bully the Hall, and afer that she had a penance forced upon her everytime she tried to act. In the end she ended up a puppet for the hall, doing everything they said and as a result causing a whole lot of chaos. In the end sisters rose up and the entire hall was deposed. Shein, not directly at fault, was exiled. Technically though she'd done nothing to warrent stilling, or deposal. That was all the Halls doing.

 

She was killed only because of ongoing attempts to reinstate her. Beyond that given the entire hall needed to be deposed--well, stilling requires open charges recorded in the history--stilling an entire Hall and Amyrlin, as would have been nessasary once that was begun, would have been too nasty a blemish on the Tower.

[The Lost One]

I hope I am not confusing things in my head, but....

 

When Tarna was discussing bonding Ashaman, doesn't she give one of the reasons to not invole Elaida, because it is "Ajah Business", and not Elaida's. 

 

I know Luckers stated that what Tarna did was inappropriate, but this would lead me to believe that the Keeper is still an active part of her Ajah - maybe not as active as a normal sister, but she still has a say and can be involved in Ajah matters. 

 

 

[metria31183]

 

I know Luckers stated that what Tarna did was inappropriate, but this would lead me to believe that the Keeper is still an active part of her Ajah - maybe not as active as a normal sister, but she still has a say and can be involved in Ajah matters. 

 

 

 

I think that what Tarna did could be interpreted as she, herself, was still involved in Ajah matters, but that doesn't necesarrily mean that she should be or that other Keepers were.  It is probably a measure of the strength or weakness of the Amyrlin that the Keeper is still working with her old Ajah.  Just because a Keeper SHOULDN'T get involved in Ajah matters doesn't mean that she doesn't.  The Keeper and the Amyrlin should be on the same sheet of music when it comes to affairs such as this, but obviously Tarna and Elaida aren't.  Tarna is doing what she think's needs to done.  If the two of them had the traditional Amyrlin/Keeper relationship, Tarna probably wouldn't have to act as if she was still a memeber of the Red Ajah.

[Alexius]

DId Chunla stop being Amyrlin when she was exiled, or was she still technically Amyrlin (though with no power) until she died?

[balefireruinssteaks]

I thought they kept her on a farm and ran the Tower without her.

 

 

as far as Tarna, I wonder if it wasn't just another case of "no one is saying anything so this is permissible" like Shemerin.  Aes Sedai told her to ignore Elaida's decree that she would be Accepted again, but she didn't so she gave Elaida that power.

 

Tarna might be totally out of place to seek out her former Ajah and exclude Elaida, but because no one spoke against it, it was accepted as...well, acceptable.

[Luckers]

When Tarna was discussing bonding Ashaman, doesn't she give one of the reasons to not invole Elaida, because it is "Ajah Business", and not Elaida's. 

 

No, that was Tsutama. And stated to Pevara and Javindhra.

 

DId Chunla stop being Amyrlin when she was exiled, or was she still technically Amyrlin (though with no power) until she died?

 

Well, according to the records she 'died' in the Tower, in her bed. A new Amyrlin was raised at that time. However technically, according to Tower Law, she would have still been Amyrlin to her death since the Hall never deposed her (as they too were exiled).

 

as far as Tarna, I wonder if it wasn't just another case of "no one is saying anything so this is permissible" like Shemerin.  Aes Sedai told her to ignore Elaida's decree that she would be Accepted again, but she didn't so she gave Elaida that power.

 

Tarna might be totally out of place to seek out her former Ajah and exclude Elaida, but because no one spoke against it, it was accepted as...well, acceptable

 

That's pretty much my guess too. It was inappropriate, possibly even illegal, or treason, but then what she was suggesting, bonding men who can channel rather than gentling them--that too is treason.

 

Altogether it becomes a bit of a 'meh' issue. As Cadsuane said, what's one treason more or less. They can only execute you once.