Min's viewing fails?

[RAND AL THOR]

On page  in the Shadow Rising:

 

And that fire-haired novice who was going to get herself with child...!Sheriam cut that short- the girl won't even think of men until she has finished her training-but we'd not have known until is was too late without you.

 

Those are Siuan's words directed at Min. Min's viewings are not supposed to fail. But if she saw a vieweing that this girl was to get pregnant, and the tower prevented it from happening, doesnt this mean that the viewing was false? Of course, you can argue that Min actually saw her getting pregnant far in the future so the viewing may still come true but that would make no sense because then the tower needn't have interfered.

 

So what does this add up to? Min claims that her viewings always come true. Slip by RJ? Or am I reading this wrong? ???

 

[Majsju]

Shortly after that viewing, Sheriam left the WT, for obvious reasons. So little chance of her preventing said novice from getting herself in that particular kind of trouble.

[RAND AL THOR]

I think Siuan says that Sheriam has ALREADY prevented the said novice from getting herself into that kind of trouble. 'Sheriam cut the girl short' is in the past tense. It doesnt say 'Sheriam will deal with her'

 

Hence my original qustion still stands. ;D

[bjclinton]

what you need to remember is that noone can prevent this from happening. In fact, a few times in TWOT Min has indicated that trying to prevent things can sometimes only speed up the inevitable.

 

In fact, If i remember that part you're talking about correctly, very soon after this conversation Min still sees her sneaking around with her man and reflects on the truth of her viewings, regardless of how much anyone wants to change them.

 

I think you're just taking too much stock into how much the WT has control over events.

[bronnt]

bh clinton, you're exactly right.  The same novice was sneaking off immediately after Siuan makes her comment.  Min's viewing didn't fail, despite Siuan and Sheriam's efforts to prevent it.  They just didn't understand her viewings in the same way that Moiraine and Rand do.

[RAND AL THOR]

Thanks everyone. If you come across the page where the novice is sneaking about please tell me the page number. I want to verify this as I cant remember such a part, despite having read the book over 15 times.

[manicompulsive]

Yeah, I thought she was sneaking around with a "handsome tower guard".

[Guest Dreadlord]

Also, we know that Mins viewings CANNOT be wrong, so the viewing itself would have taken into account that Sheriam/whoever would have prevented the novice from getting pregnant when she did. The only way anyone could have proven it wrong is to kill the novice and not be balefired shortly after.

[Andrew the Great]

Even had Min not seen the girl and her man sneaking around afterward, we could possibly have explained it anyway. It could possibly be that her viewing had said something about "if something isn't done to prevent it, that girl will get herself with child." I can't recall a case of a conditional viewing like this before, but I see no reason why it shouldn't happen...please discuss, I always like to hear feedback when I get a new idea!

[Kadere]

It happens when she sees Gawyn kneeling to Egwene, and then sees him killing Egwene. So in that case it depends on the conditions Egwene and Gawyn are in to determine which future will happen.

[Jehaine]

It's a lot more common than you'd think, actually. Suppose Min looks at Rand (which she happens to do a lot) and sees he's going to have a battle to the death with Moridin. Then, a week or so later, she has a vision of him standing in front of the Seanchan throne.

 

This would by extension mean that Rand would not die to Moridin until he went to Seandar (fulfilling the other vision). Still, that wouldn't automatically mean he'd win... He'd just be known to survive.

 

In a way, you could say Min's Talent is Reading the Wheel. Because the Pattern would want Rand in Seandar, it warps chance until that goal is achieved, disregarding minor stuff like fighting Moridin..

 

Edit: True Kadere, forgot about that scene. They might still both happen though, where Gawyn kneels to Egwene, then something happens where he is forced to kill her.

[RAND AL THOR]

Omg, Min saw Gawyn killing Egwene? ?It cannot be possible. Please give the reference if you remember. At least which book? I like Egwene and I cannot believe such a thing can happen no matter what Min saw!

 

And one more point Jehaine, I really do not think that Rand will have time to go to Seandar in AMOL. If he does have to 'kneel to the crystal throne' he can do that in Randland because Tuon is .effectively, now the crystal throne- since the entire royal family in Seandar is dead.

[Kadere]

Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future.

 

The things she saw were very rarely as clear in meaning as those two, and she had never before seen that fluttering back and forth, as though not even the viewing could tell which would be the true future. Worse, she had a feeling near to certainty that it was what she had done this day that had turned Gawyn toward those two possibilities.

 

-The Shadow Rising, Chapter 47: The Truth of a Viewing

 

Only time that ever happens.

[RAND AL THOR]

Thankx Kadere

Thank God is says 'as if either could be the future.' I think there is little doubt what the outcome is. RJ isnt going to end all of Egwene's troubles by killing her off now is he? I mean she's trying so hard to get the Stole and the Staff. No doubt, once Egwene becomes official Amyrlin, Gawyn will have to kneel before her. I especially want Egwene to punish him severely because of what he did during the deposing of Siuan. He had no right to kill expert warders. I was sick of him at that point. In fact, the deposing of Siuan was one of the most sad parts of the story. I was utterly shocked since I always imagined an Amyrlin to be the absolute authority in Randland. Cursy Gawyn for what he did that day!

And how could what Min had done that day turn Gawyn towards the first possibility ie. the kneeling possibility? Doesnt seem to make much sense (at least not yet :D)

[Luckers]

Quote

Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future.

 

The things she saw were very rarely as clear in meaning as those two, and she had never before seen that fluttering back and forth, as though not even the viewing could tell which would be the true future. Worse, she had a feeling near to certainty that it was what she had done this day that had turned Gawyn toward those two possibilities.

 

-The Shadow Rising, Chapter 47: The Truth of a Viewing

 

Only time that ever happens.

 

She does actually later have a similar viewing--the one about Siuan and Gareth Bryne--but at the time she specifies that that is the second time she had ever had that sort of viewing.

 

Thanks everyone. If you come across the page where the novice is sneaking about please tell me the page number. I want to verify this as I cant remember such a part, despite having read the book over 15 times.

 

It's a paragraph down from the comment you raised.

 

Min sighed, and not only because the Amyrlin meant to hold on to her. The last time she had seen that novice she had been sneaking off to a wooded part of the grounds with a muscular guard. They would be married, perhaps before the end of the summer. Min had known that as soon as she'd seen them together, though the Tower never let a girl go until the Tower was ready, not even one that could go no further in her training. There was a farm in the pairs future, and a swarm of children. But there was no point in telling the Amyrlin that. [tSR - Chapter 17 - Deceptions]

 

This is after Sheriam supposedly cut it short, and Min herself makes clear that in spite of the obvious restrictions, its going to happen anyway.

[aussie_ashaman123]

What do you think Min saw when she remarked about Faolin?

in the book Lord of Chaos