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Rand alThor

Why was Lord Luc/Slayer in the Emonds Field?

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Guest Majsju

Well, there's also the possibility that the Foretelling had nothing to do with aiding the shadow, that that part was just a side-effect.

 

What Was important was that Tigraine went to the Aiel waste, and gould go through with her part without interruptions. Now, if Luc had not been sent to the Blight, it's quite possible he would have ran off looking for her. Which could have messed up things quite a bit.

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It seems strange, though, that Gitara would have a foretelling just to stop him from interfereing. Aes Sedai are well able to stop people interfereing with their orders.

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It seems strange, though, that Gitara would have a foretelling just to stop him from interfereing. Aes Sedai are well able to stop people interfereing with their orders.

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I thought Luc went to the waste after tigraine did. I just listened to Dylins explanation of events to Rand this morning, and thats what it sounded like to me. Also I believe (my opinion) the reason Gitara sent him was so that he would confront Rands father and kill him there by leaving Rand with no family to raise him, there may be another deeper reason yet to come but that seems more of the shadows work than Gitara Sedai.

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I thought Luc went to the waste after tigraine did. I just listened to Dylins explanation of events to Rand this morning, and thats what it sounded like to me. Also I believe (my opinion) the reason Gitara sent him was so that he would confront Rands father and kill him there by leaving Rand with no family to raise him, there may be another deeper reason yet to come but that seems more of the shadows work than Gitara Sedai.

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Rand wouldn't have had family to raise him, even if his real father had never been killed. Tam found Rand and took off with him right after Rand was killed. Rand's real father had plenty of chance to go after Rand, but he knew it was a lost cause to find him.

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And he had no reason to suspect that Rand lived. Shaiel perished during the battle, away from other Aiel. It's likely she was never found, so it was probably assumed that rand died with her.

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Well when he crossed to the Aiel Waste and met up with his fathers clan Rand would have met him. So my idea still stands that she sent him to the waste which set up the encounter with Jonduin. From there I just assume he became a pawn of the Dark as in eleven books he hasnt had more than a cursory existence in the story. I think he has a part to play, but until some better evidence Im going to go with the idea that Luc was sent for his destiny, and part of that destiny was to kill Jonduin.

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I'm not saying your wrong. He probably was meant to kill him. The real question is, why? The only thing I can think of is that, maybe, he needed Rhuuarc to be the clan chief of the Taardad. How much would be different if his father had still been that chief?

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Like you said maybe Rhuarc was meant to be Clan chief. i was thinking maybe Jonduin was meant not to be clan chief. If Rand had crossed and found his biological father waiting, perhaps Couladin wouldnt have taken the Shaido over the wall. A whole lot of stuff could have been different. And as Rand contemplates the chain of events that brought him to Camelyn in book 6, everything might have been ruined had he found Jonduin. That is why I come up with what I do. It wasnt enough that Tigraine was his mother, if his bio father still lived what would that have done to the story. As far as the whole Luc/Isam thing, IMO that is part of the shadow prophecy shown in TGH. BTW thanks for not just dismissing my theory, I appreciate it.

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Also never discount Gitara Sedai. She seems to be super influential with varius characters, and what she might have said to certain carachters off screen did not make it into the series as quotes. We really only have Dylin and a couple of other people to "play" witness to what she said. Most of the time it is second hand knowledge. Honestly from what we have seen from those with the "foretelling" They do not remember what they said. Interpretations weigh heavily.

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Actually, sometimes they remember, and sometimes they don't. It seems to vary de[ending on the person and the circumstances. For instance, Nicola had her first Foretelling while in the Circle in Salidar, but didn't remember it afterward. However Elaida said the very first Foretelling she'd ever had was that the royal house of Andor was the key to winning the last battle, but that she'd been smart enough to keep that knowledge to herself. That, plus all the other times we see Elaida have a Foretelling, implies that she's very conscious of what she says. Especially the Foretelling she has with Alvirin in the Tower. The one about the BT being in flames and Sisters walking its grounds. There was only the two of them there, and I doubt anyone told Elaida what it was she had said. But she has no problems knowing what it is she said in that Foretelling.

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Luc being sent by Gitara so that he would encounter and kill Jonduin doesn't fit timeline wise. Certainly he wasn't sent into the waste. He was sent specifically to the blight, and several years passed between then and when he killed Jonduin... He couldn't simply have just been waiting around in the blight for several years, no, he was already joined with Isam. It doesn't nessasarily mean that killing Jonduin wasn't the reason he needed to go though.

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I don't think any of us meant that Luc was sent to kill him by Gitara. At least I didn't. We're simply saying that Gitara's Foretelling sent him there, where he then was merged with Isaam and killed Rand'd dad. The question we're exploring is why that had to happen. Is killing him the reason Luc had to go, because his resemblance to Tigraine kept himself from being killed by Jonduin? Or is there more to it? And if it was just to kill Jonduin, why was that so important?

 

Why, we've strayed a bit from the orginial question in the thread haven't we? :D

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I don't think any of us meant that Luc was sent to kill him by Gitara. At least I didn't. We're simply saying that Gitara's Foretelling sent him there, where he then was merged with Isaam and killed Rand'd dad. The question we're exploring is why that had to happen. Is killing him the reason Luc had to go, because his resemblance to Tigraine kept himself from being killed by Jonduin? Or is there more to it? And if it was just to kill Jonduin, why was that so important?

 

I know, that wasn't what i meant. I was reply to somebodies assertion that Gitara sent him into the waste on the basis of her foretelling, and i was saying that no, the foretelling sent him to the blight.

 

The possibility that it nessasary for him to go so that someday he would kill Jonduin is definately there.

 

I still think, though, it was so that he would join with Isam and end up being powerful enough to kill Fain... but thats just my thought.

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Guest Majsju

Somehow I don't really buy Slayer being created just to be powerful enough to kill Fain. Seems like a channeler would be a better option.

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Somehow I don't really buy Slayer being created just to be powerful enough to kill Fain. Seems like a channeler would be a better option.
True. However, if the first real opportunity to kill him won't come until the Last Battle, then all the channelers will probably be a tad busy.

 

I can see it now...

 

Rand has driven his forces through to SG itself. Aiel cover the mountainside fighting some of the nastiest Shadowspawn ever created. Rand enters the Bore where he meets some kind of powerful resistence, backed up by Slayer. Rand meets them in battle and Fain, who has been following unseen, trembling all the way with his memories of his treatment in the very place, leaps out screaming that al'Thor is his. Dagger bared he lunges for Slayer to take him out of the way first, much as he eliminated the renegade AM in Far Madding before going after him himself.

 

Slayer and Fain battle. Slayer manages to cast Fain into the Bore where the DO tears him limb from limb and eats his soul, but not before taking a wound from the dagger. Slayer falls dieing, and as he does he splits into Luc and Issam. And as he takes his last breath Luc reveals some critical piece of knowledge to his nephew Rand that ensures the defeat of the Dark One.

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Somehow I don't really buy Slayer being created just to be powerful enough to kill Fain. Seems like a channeler would be a better option.
True. However' date=' if the first real opportunity to kill him won't come until the Last Battle, then all the channelers will probably be a tad busy.

 

I can see it now...

 

Rand has driven his forces through to SG itself. Aiel cover the mountainside fighting some of the nastiest Shadowspawn ever created. Rand enters the Bore where he meets some kind of powerful resistence, backed up by Slayer. Rand meets them in battle and Fain, who has been following unseen, trembling all the way with his memories of his treatment in the very place, leaps out screaming that al'Thor is his. Dagger bared he lunges for Slayer to take him out of the way first, much as he eliminated the renegade AM in Far Madding before going after him himself.

 

Slayer and Fain battle. Slayer manages to cast Fain into the Bore where the DO tears him limb from limb and eats his soul, but not before taking a wound from the dagger. Slayer falls dieing, and as he does he splits into Luc and Issam. And as he takes his last breath Luc reveals some critical piece of knowledge to his nephew Rand that ensures the defeat of the Dark One.[/quote']

 

Smeagol Fain?

J

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Smeagol Fain?
I have always kinda seen him like that. A twisted wretch, determined to kill. I thought it was an apt comparison. :)

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Somehow I don't really buy Slayer being created just to be powerful enough to kill Fain. Seems like a channeler would be a better option.

 

I don't think he was. He was created for him to serve the Dark as a powerful weapon. But i do think that a confrontation between Fain and Slayer is coming, and that this confrontation is nessasary, and that this was the reason Gitara had the foretelling.

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fain was only just recently made this powerful. the DO cant see the future, so he could not have forseen the need for slayer to be powerful enough to kill him. guitara might have.

 

so in the eyes of the DO, slayer has another purpose.

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I'm really curious what effect the destruction of Shadar Logoth would have had upon Fain. We haven't seen him since SL went cablooey with the taint, so I'm a little piqued.

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I'd guess that since Rands wound from Fain's dagger hasn't changed Fain likely hasn't changed either. But the evil of SL might die with the two of them. I don't remember anyone else being infected with that evil alive now.

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Guest cwestervelt

RJ has answered some of this in the Tor Question of the Week. We can extrapolate the rest:

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

Week 10 Question: Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called the Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city. Remember that it was because he was Padan Fain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)

 

The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.

 

First, the damage caused be the Dagger was already done. Eradicating the original source of a disease comes from isn't going to cure the victims that have been infected, just prevent further infection. Second, since the evil power of the dagger has not been reduced, there is apparently no lingering connection between Shadar Logoth and the Dagger. Since the Dagger is unaffected it would be illogical for anything done by the dagger to have been affected.

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