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LTT's purpose in Rand's Destiny?


OsaroLJ
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I have been re-readimg KOD and the question of LTT's purpose has me wracking my brains. Why did RJ include a plot line that had the main hero mentally "invaded" by a personality from a past life? I understand the fundamental premonition that LTT has helped Rand numerous times stay alive. He aided Rand enormously at Dumai's Wells, gives him information about the Forsaken, and teaches him weaves that nobody, save the Forsaken, can even dream of. Basically, he evens out the odds for Rand to succeed against the greatest powers the world has ever known.

 

However, what is clear in KOD is that LTT's personality seems to be becoming more active. It's as if this plot line isn't intending on just holding the status quo. It seems to me that RJ is moving LTT story somewhere. The ease of which he is able to gain control of Saidin in the book shows me that there is much more to come from him. The fact that he able to resist Rands demands regarding releasing Saidin tells me that LTT "wants" more. I do not know if that makes sense, but it seems like the character is pushing for more control.

 

Is it possible that HE is the dragon that will fight at TG? Will Rand just sit back and watch as LTT spanks Forsaken after Forsaken? It certainly would make things run full circle. I wish, back in the 90s when RJ created the LTT persona, we could have gotten insight on his place in this story 'cause there are ways to go around NOT having his plot line (i.e. Asmodean). One thing that I want to watch in AMOL is how his 'deathwish' plays out. I want to see how that affects the way Rand fights in the Last Battle.

 

Regardless, my question still stands: What does RJ intend to with LTT? Why is LTT in this story of the Wheel?

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For my own personal opinion, LTT is a tutor for Rand. He also serves to prove to us, as the cynical reader, that Rand is truly the Dragon Reborn.

 

As a less-than-100%-convinced-on-the-body-swap-theory-er I think that LTT and Rand are the 'two' that Min saw in her viewing. They merge, one lives, one dies. I think that LTT will die and Rand will be left with a semblance of what Mat has - memories. Not a screaming voice. But before he can just kill him off, in order to actually make it mean something to us, RJ has to build some sort of relationship between us and LTT - he has to develop the character, hence the increased activity.

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For my own personal opinion, LTT is a tutor for Rand. He also serves to prove to us, as the cynical reader, that Rand is truly the Dragon Reborn.

 

As a less-than-100%-convinced-on-the-body-swap-theory-er I think that LTT and Rand are the 'two' that Min saw in her viewing. They merge, one lives, one dies. I think that LTT will die and Rand will be left with a semblance of what Mat has - memories. Not a screaming voice. But before he can just kill him off, in order to actually make it mean something to us, RJ has to build some sort of relationship between us and LTT - he has to develop the character, hence the increased activity.

 

Ok. I disagree that LTT is meant to be a tutor. It seems like Rand tries almost always to ignore the poor man's rantings instead of taking his advice. In fact, KOD reveals one of TWO times when LTT is actually coherent enough to lend Rand help. Interestingly, LTT also pleads with Rand to trust him. His character IS moving somewhere...I think LTT WILL have crucial role to play in TG.

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Guest Dreadlord

I dont know if this is what you were hoping for, but here goes.

 

The way I see it, Lews Therin has been serving the purpose he is meant to ever since he started speaking to Rand-or should I say purposes. I suppose it depends on whose PoV you look at it from-the readers or RJs. Recently I have been looking at most of this from RJs PoV. (I am an aspiring writer, and this reread is purely to get a few pointers from the series-its by far my greatest inspiration. Blah, blah, blah.)

 

His memories help Rand learn the process of channelling. After Rand first channels to give his horse stamina, bits of information float across from Lews to Rand, helping him with the first few steps that enable him to take out Forsaken early on. When i say this, I refer to the memories-the voice has a bigger part later on as we all know.

 

On top of that, and something I believe to be more important, is the knowledge of the Forsaken. Rand recognises the Forsaken due to the memories that float across, giving him the insight he needs; he knows to attack them instantly even though he had never seen them before. Otherwise they would have the initiative and would probably have killed him, or turned him.

 

The fact that Rand hears the voice helps him be sure he really is the Dragon Reborn. And the fact that the things the voice says regarding the One Power-as well as everything else Rand learns from it-are real, confirm to Rand that it is a real voice, and that it really is Lews Therin he is hearing. I dont know if I explained that very well, but a good example is when Egwene asks Rand to hide her from the Aes Sedai embassy, before Rand is captured. It is from Egwenes PoV, but from what she hears of Rand "talking to himself" it is clearly Lews Therin suggesting to Rand to turn her invisible, and he shows him the weaves in his mind. And another example is Dumais Wells, when Lews describes how to break through the tied-off Shield.

 

I doubt Lews Therin will be significant in the Last Battle any more than before it. But of course thats only speculation.

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good stuff, Dreadlord. What do u think about his recent ability to grab Saidin and how that may or may not affect TG. It plays a crucial role in KOD (i.e., Rand gets his hand blown off because he was struggling with LTT for Saidin), one that brings about new possibilities in their relationship. I mean, could there be a time when LTT has as much control as Rand? Will there be a time where LTT can channel anytime he wants? It seems like thats looking more likely after their interactions in KOD.

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Guest Dreadlord

Well, Rands hand didn't get blown off just because of that-if he had dodged the fireball it would have hit Min. But of course, if Rand could have channelled he would have deflected it somehow.

 

I wonder if Lews will somehow trigger the link between Rand and Moridin, the part that feels like "if either moves a hairwidth, they will touch." This is the biggest piece of evidence for the bodyswap. And considering that at some point Rand will learn exactly who Moridin is, the moment he finds out Lews Therin will try and grab Saidin.

 

I would like it if as Moridin and Rand are about to fight and Lews grabs Saidin. Rand cant get it off him, Moridin starts seriously wiping the floor with Rands face. And something happens to throw Moridin off-Padan Fain pops out of nowhere screaming "Hes mine!" and as Moridin strikes down Fain, Rand kills Moridin.

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I wonder if a time will come when Rand has to kill a woman. Lanfear/Cyndane would be my best guess as he's failed to do it before. He has to kill a woman, and he can't but if he doesnt, she will certainly kill him and everyone around him.

 

Perhaps LTT will take control while Rand is whining and worrying about it, and do it for him.

 

If he's siezing the source of his own accord I can only think that either he will do something rash, or he will do something useful, which Rand either doesnt have the ability to do, perhaps he's incapacitated or simply not strong enough (as with the women), or it's something that Rand doesnt even realise needs doing.

 

I have often wondered, for what it's worth, whether the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy has already been fulfilled. To say that LTT is 'dead' could be debated - certainly his body died but he is very much alive in Rand's head, he pleads to be allowed to die, in fact.

 

Perhaps the first dawning was LTT being born and since he isnt dead, the second dawning was Rand being born.

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

I have often wondered, for what it's worth, whether the 'twice dawns the day' prophecy has already been fulfilled. To say that LTT is 'dead' could be debated - certainly his body died but he is very much alive in Rand's head, he pleads to be allowed to die, in fact.

UNQUOTE

 

I disagree with that one. The prophecies are all talking about the Dragon Reborn, not the Dragon. Granted, some do say the Dragon, but they refer to this incarnation, not the past one. The Dragon prophecies came about after Lews Therin died, did they not?

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For my own personal opinion, LTT is a tutor for Rand. He also serves to prove to us, as the cynical reader, that Rand is truly the Dragon Reborn.

 

As a less-than-100%-convinced-on-the-body-swap-theory-er I think that LTT and Rand are the 'two' that Min saw in her viewing. They merge, one lives, one dies. I think that LTT will die and Rand will be left with a semblance of what Mat has - memories. Not a screaming voice. But before he can just kill him off, in order to actually make it mean something to us, RJ has to build some sort of relationship between us and LTT - he has to develop the character, hence the increased activity.

 

Ok. I disagree that LTT is meant to be a tutor. It seems like Rand tries almost always to ignore the poor man's rantings instead of taking his advice. In fact, KOD reveals one of TWO times when LTT is actually coherent enough to lend Rand help. Interestingly, LTT also pleads with Rand to trust him. His character IS moving somewhere...I think LTT WILL have crucial role to play in TG.

 

I agree with Trakand_01 up to a point.  Rather than a tutor, what LTT is is more aof an insane mentor.  Imagine a shellshocked Mr Miagi talking to his dead WWII buddies but still teaching Daniel the "wax on" techinique

 

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Also, a random though occurs to me.

 

Could the DO, or any entity capable of transmigrating a soul for that matter, pull the LTT soul out of Rand and put it in a new body?

 

If it's really a real soul, seperate from Rand's, a fact I just last night convinced myself of, why would that not be possible?

 

Would that be good or bad for the body swap theorists?

 

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Also, a random though occurs to me.

 

Could the DO, or any entity capable of transmigrating a soul for that matter, pull the LTT soul out of Rand and put it in a new body?

 

If it's really a real soul, seperate from Rand's, a fact I just last night convinced myself of, why would that not be possible?

 

Would that be good or bad for the body swap theorists?

 

 

He can't.  Rand's soul and LTT's soul are one and the same.  The DO would have to split the soul in order that to happen.  I don't think we have any evidence that the DO can do that.

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Guest Dreadlord

Exactly. Lews Therin and Rand are effectively the same person, in different times. The only case that he could possibly split anyone at all is with Luc and Isam, which is a case of two people being put together. You cant make one person into two, unless he was cloned somehow, and if that happened I would put the books down.

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So the voice is real.  The voice is in fact that of the soul of Lews Therin Thelamon who died at the end of the Age of Legends. 

 

But then that means The Voice of LTT is not a splintered fragment of Rand's personality and therefore Rand is not insane and Semihrage was full of crap, at least about that part.

 

I hope they capture Greandal and beat an explanation (not the mention a fix for the problem) out of her.

 

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As no less a scholar than Verin notes:  He is taveren.  He draws what he needs to him.

 

He needs knowledge that only LTT can provide.  Thus the Wheel arranges for him to get it from the LTT facet of his soul.  Whether it is an example of the Law-of-Uninteded-Consequences, or an effect of the DO's touch upon the world, he also gets the babbling, raving, and ranting as well.

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But then that means The Voice of LTT is not a splintered fragment of Rand's personality and therefore Rand is not insane and Semihrage was full of crap, at least about that part.

 

Or more likely, Rand is a tad mad, and the madness is what allows him to hear LTT (the madness tearing down the "wall" between the previous and the current incarnation).

 

Oh, and souls can not be split.

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Asmodean was the first tutor, and he helped Rand practice enough with the Power that Rand started going mad from the taint.  I'll take Semihrage's word, that hearing the alternate facets of the soul is a sign of insanity, even (especially) if the voice is a true voice.

 

LTT is the next tutor, but he is also much more.  LTT was the main character of the prologue of tEotW, sharing the stage with the bad guy.  I am not sure with all the renaming, but I think the same bad guy is now Moridin.  So, my take is that LTT will die spectacularly at TG, whether in victorious sacrifice or otherwise.

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I don't know if this is possible but i was thinking. When Rand was thinking about his connection to Moridin and he was saying that if he moved a hair he could touch him, would it be possible in any way that Lews Therin can do the same? That he can maybe take over Moridin's body? Because if he can take control of Rand then why couldnt he do the same with Moridin? They all have a connection. Its just a thought. 

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

So the voice is real.  The voice is in fact that of the soul of Lews Therin Thelamon who died at the end of the Age of Legends.

 

But then that means The Voice of LTT is not a splintered fragment of Rand's personality and therefore Rand is not insane and Semihrage was full of crap, at least about that part.

UNQUOTE

 

NO! This cant be put any clearer than it already has. Lews Therin and Rand are the same person, THE SAME SOUL! They were spun out at different times. The Dragon, according to RJ, is A SOUL WHICH THE WHEEL SPINS OUT TO BE THE CHAMPION OF THE LIGHT. That means that, if LTT was the Dragon and Rand the Dragon Reborn, that they have the same soul and therefore they are more or less the same guy in different times.

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LTT's purpose I think is to help Rand stay alive long enough to reach TG but he is also there I think, to do those things that Rand can't i.e. kill a woman. The question remains though is how is LTT able to wrest control of the One power from Rand and wield it through Rand, as if he were some sort of Ter'Angreal, and  the fact that he can wrest the power from Rand and is also trying to die so he tries to draw more and more of the power, what is that going to mean for Rand if he finally does wrest control completely and Rand has to "talk" LTT down.

 

Yes, Rand is LTT reborn so they are one in the same (one soul if you will) but also 2 different people with different memories, LTT's of which impede upon Rand as well as that part of Rand's "soul" that is still LTT or "remembers" LTT.

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I think Rand gets knocked out before that can happen.  I think sealing the Bore drains him, and he gets hurt(I think he burns himself out, also. That would end the adventures and allow Rand a somewhat normal life.  Somewhat.), so Lews doesn't have time to end their lives. Then Lews gets made to go bye-bye.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I agree with trakand 01. LTT is Rand's tutor. Ever since Rand has been channeling he has been doing stuff without knowing how to do it, but he remembers it after he does it. LTT has been active for a long time. I believe all the channeling stuff came from him and we know that his 'voice' only started appearing in book 5 and that too little by little. LTT didnt suddenly burst into existance in Rand;s mind.

 

However, I disagree that the twice dawns the day prophecy has been fulfilled. Frankly, I'm 99.9% sure this refers to a solar eclipse during Tarmon Gaidon and I dont think I'll ever change that viewpoint. Also, it seems that the people in Randland have very little knowledge about eclipses since no-one even considers that this part of the prophecy may refer to and eclipse. I remember someone (I think an Aes Sedai) wondering how a day can dawn twice.

 

;)

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