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Minor Point of Interest Re: Darkfriend Channelers.


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You know, it just occured to me that despite reading the books upwards of twenty times i never payed attention to one moment. Specifically the moment when the Wonder Girl's get captured by bandits who try to sell them to Myrdraal. I always enjoyed this moment, but i never really paid attention to the implications. Specifically, Myrdraal making an active effort to capture Aes Sedai.

 

Furthermore, its spoken of with familiarity. The men in that group know, and have known, of this interest for sometimes. The whole incident has a feel of having done this before.

 

Its probably minor, but concider the ultimate possible reality of this. Only 450 sisters have been accurately accounted for--nearly six hundred more have been absent from the Tower and the story since the beginning of the books. If an active effort is being made to kidnap and turn them then the implications could have an intereseting effect on the landscape.

 

Especially when you keep in mind that currently the Light has around 13,600 channelers whilst the Shadow has, on estimate, no more the 4,000. (based on my military roundup thread).

 

Preperation for Tarmon Gai'don has been underway amongst the Shadow for twenty--that they've been actively gathering channelers ive no doubt--aside from the fact that they did it during the Trolloc Wars, and that Taim speaks of having trained channelers in the past, and Liandrin implies that all darkfriends are screened for the ability--not to mention all the suggestions about what happens to Aiel Male Channelers....

 

But i never paused to consider that there might be an active plot to turn the light based channelers already in play. What do you guys think?

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I think turning channelers against their will is dangerous, especially Aes Sedai but I could go with it.

 

I think Taim (which, according to Wikipedia is Ta-eem, but not in my head!) was coerced into putting up with working under Rand so as to gain control of hundreds of male channelers, with an ulterior motive to what he told people. I think we've got a surprise coming with Taim - I dont think he's simply working for Demandred, that would be too obvious.

 

Mesaana is in the tower - who knows how many Aes Sedai she is hand-picking, and could be turning them over to the Myrdraal. Demandred is who-knows where, probably keeping low, hoping to become Nae'blis, obviously he's kept so quiet Moridin has got there first.

 

Alviarin is in the tower and although she's working under Mesaana, I have no doubt she would be able to 'lure' AS into the grasps of Myrdraal if she needed to - even if she had to make it look like Myrdraal had besieged the Tower, having let them in herself.

 

Perhaps this would tie in with Taim's disgust at Logain bonding AS; every one Logain and his men bond is one less for the Dark to turn (presuming that Logain's men aren't darkfriends).

 

Incidentally, how strong a Myrdraal is Shaidar Haran? Could he turn an AS by himself?

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Guest The Thin Inn Keeper

I couldn't find the military buildup thread, so apologies if this repeats anything...

 

It's a distinct possibility.

 

There seems to be a massive disparity in the number of channelers, that's for sure. If the bandits know of the attempts, then its happened before, if it's happened before then we have no way of knowing how many have been taken. Since we can't verify the Aes Sedai who have been off-screen, there's no way of knowing. I saw someone asking if it possible for an Aes Sedai to be a DF without being a BA. There's no reason why they couldn't be, wouldn't be is another matter. If they're not BA, then they're off the radar. i.e. the BA wouldn't figure them into the equation. Just a thought. If they're independent of the BA they could be useful to the DO.

 

Added to the kidnapping of Aes Sedai, the raids out of the Blight down the years must have resulted in their picking up channelers. Given the large number of Novices the rebels are picking up by recruiting from the general population, who's to say that the DO wasn't getting them by the bucketful?

 

edit... We know the Trollocs took people to SG, if I remember correctly it was to be used in the making of their weapons.

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It was me who asked about AS being Darkfriends but not BA, I wondered when they caught out the Black sister in the Tower dungeons, they all said different things. Some said 'I am not Black Ajah' and some simply said 'I am not a Darkfriend' - the two statements can mean completely different things.

 

yes they take trollocs to make myrdraal blades, I believe; each blade is forged from the soul of an innocent person, if i remember rightly.

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Guest durram laddel cham

I agree with the shadow gathering channelers, but who learnt the male dreadlords to channel? It took a lot  of time (2 or 3 year before TG)to break free and I don't think they're gathering channelers only in the past 3 years.

I don't see Demandred teaching them full time.

 

the Myrdraal blades are made by a special sort of creature, but as I think of them they look a bit like a trolloc. I believe they are mentioned at the beginning of LoC.

 

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What about Shara/Samara.  Despite what Graendal says, that could be a major factor, especially if, as I think, Demandred has set up shop there and basically turned the entire country. 

 

Light -

 

White Tower - By the time Egwene is through, it will likely have 4,000 channelers.  She's got the 1000 Aes Sedai and she's bringing in the Kin, which will swell those ranks to 2500, all of whom have honed their use of the Power without the "Hand waving" the real As use.  Another couple of hundred accepted and upward of a thousand novices who can be linked if not fight. 

 

The Black Ajah will be dealyt with before TG.  Those that escaope will be dreadlords, those that don't ewill be collared, bound or stilled

 

Aiel - There are 11 clans left (no more Shaido or Jenn)  That makes for 5000 effective Aiel channelers.  This is based on the Shaido having 400 Wise Ones that can channel to effect (from KoD).  Since we know Shaido are lazy dogrobbers, they could have missed a few learners, if not sparkers. 

 

The Seafolk windfinders likely will number roughly equivalent to the Aiel.  The question is whether fighting at TG is part of the batrgain they struck with Rand.  I don't remember.

 

That's 14000 right there, not including the BT which will add at most another 700 to 1000 after the Taim/Logain Schism.

 

The nation of Shara could add that many to the side of the Shadow meaning things could get ugly.

 

 

As fotr the Myrdraal blades, they are made by the Forgers, out of steel.  The steel is then soaked in the fetid water that runs from the base of everyone's favorite evil fun mountain, then the almost finished blade is quenched in the soul of a human. 

 

My question (and I've wondered about htis for a while) is which action does what.  Since the black water (Sharidar Haran was one of the Doobie Brothers?) is known to be able to kill the Forgers at a single touch, it is probably this that causes the unhealable wounds. 

 

What does the captive human soul do? 

 

Maybe this is what gives the Fades skill with the Blade?

 

 

 

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Damn good thoughts here...and here are my two centavos.....

 

While completing a recent re-read of LoC, (@ work without books) I remember a passage regarding how male Aiel who begin to channel will go to the blight to hunt the DO, then they are never heard of again.

 

I often wondered how many Aiel could've been recruited, either voluntarily through the promise of eternal life, avoiding madness/sickness etc, or being forced to the DO??

 

How would the forces of Randland (Especially the Aiel, including the Wise Ones who now take part in battle) react to seeing their former comrades now fighting for the DO? We could have Dreadlords with the knowledge of the DO, and the fighting skills of an Aiel...now that's a scary thought.

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What about Shara/Samara.  Despite what Graendal says, that could be a major factor, especially if, as I think, Demandred has set up shop there and basically turned the entire country. 

 

It seems unlikely to me that the Sharans will be involved. Through Ayyad rule they have the most diffused government around--circles and circles of power spreading outward. They also use compulsion as a method of rule, and thus would likely look for it within the own ranks. Furthermore they are, by all acounts, Lightbound. Not particularily pleasent, but lightbound nonetheless.

 

Also, it'd be kind hard to swallow. I mean the Aiel Instant Army was hard to swallow, and RJ spent the better part of two books setting it up, not to mention countless foreshadow.

 

White Tower - By the time Egwene is through, it will likely have 4,000 channelers.  She's got the 1000 Aes Sedai and she's bringing in the Kin, which will swell those ranks to 2500, all of whom have honed their use of the Power without the "Hand waving" the real As use.  Another couple of hundred accepted and upward of a thousand novices who can be linked if not fight. 

 

Firstly, that is unlikely. To date there are around 950 Aes Sedai, and between the two camps maybe 1,200 novices. There are less then 40 Accepted, and a large amount of the Kin will have been leashed. Maybe 3,000 tops.

 

Secondly, the Kin handwave their weaves just as much as the Aes Sedai. They don't accept wilders, which means they were all Tower trained, and suffer all their foibles.

 

The Black Ajah will be dealyt with before TG.  Those that escaope will be dreadlords, those that don't ewill be collared, bound or stilled

 

Also unlikely. Check my Memory of Light thread for my thoughts on what will happen with that, but i definately dont see the Black being dealt with before TG.

 

The Seafolk windfinders likely will number roughly equivalent to the Aiel.  The question is whether fighting at TG is part of the batrgain they struck with Rand.  I don't remember.

 

Based on described ship distribution during the Coramoor search, plus the presence of apprentices, i see there being no more than 3,000 Windfinders.

 

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Why hasnt anyone mentioned damane? how many are there? (adding in the roughly 400 former shaido wise women). Adding to that, the suldam can learn to channel, and know the forms of the weaves, so if they can get a crash course, youll triple the amount of channellers there

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Guest The Thin Inn Keeper

Why hasnt anyone mentioned damane? Adding to that, the suldam can learn to channel...

 

Hmmmm ... so, the question is: Where are the Shadow's channelers coming from? It would be odd if they haven't been active in recruiting them.

 

So far we have:

 

1. Captured (and turned) Aes Sedai and other channelers - As evidenced, to some degree, by the bandits.

2. Potentially, Aes Sedai who are not members of the BA, or have been off screen/haven't checked in with the WT - Ties in with the above and as suggested by Trakand 01.

3. Channelers from the Borderlands who've been swept up in the Trolloc raids and turned. - Seems to make sense that they'd turn a channeler rather than make a sword from their various parts.

4. Male Aiel channelers who've entered the Blight to go and die.

5. Odd Ones - DF Suldam and their charges, DF Kin (there have to be some), etc, etc.

 

Is that enough given the numbers mentioned above?

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5. Odd Ones - DF Suldam and their charges, DF Kin (there have to be some), etc, etc.

 

I thinks its obvious at this point that there are plenty of darkfriends among the Seanchan.  I am sure that Suroth was far from the only darkfriend among them.  And therefore it stands to reason that there are sul'dam and der'sul'dam and even damanae who serve the Dark One.  The big question is how many of them are in a position to affect TG (that is, how many of them crossed the Aryth Ocean with the Corenne.

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It seems unlikely to me that the Sharans will be involved. Through Ayyad rule they have the most diffused government around--circles and circles of power spreading outward. They also use compulsion as a method of rule, and thus would likely look for it within the own ranks. Furthermore they are, by all acounts, Lightbound. Not particularily pleasent, but lightbound nonetheless.

 

Also, it'd be kind hard to swallow. I mean the Aiel Instant Army was hard to swallow, and RJ spent the better part of two books setting it up, not to mention countless foreshadow.

 

I didn't find the Aiel hard to swallow! It was set up from the very beginning - so we knew they were fearsome warriors, and that there were very many of them (granted, we might not have thought there were THAT many), but it wasn't crazily unbelievable from nowhere!

 

Shara - now THAT would be from nowhere seeing as we've only had a handful of references towards them.

 

I'd be a bit disappointed if the ethnic origins of the Shadows Chanelling Army went into any detail apart from the usual physical descriptions as it skims their ranks - enabling us to figure it out ourselves.

 

 

 

 

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I didn't find the Aiel hard to swallow! It was set up from the very beginning - so we knew they were fearsome warriors, and that there were very many of them (granted, we might not have thought there were THAT many), but it wasn't crazily unbelievable from nowhere!

 

Rand dodged off magically to the Waste and returned two months later with an army of four hundred thousand algai'di'siswai and 5000 channelers. Thats extreme, and the only reason its swallowable at all is because of all the effort he put in to setting it up.

 

5. Odd Ones - DF Suldam and their charges, DF Kin (there have to be some), etc, etc.

 

I thinks its obvious at this point that there are plenty of darkfriends among the Seanchan.  I am sure that Suroth was far from the only darkfriend among them.  And therefore it stands to reason that there are sul'dam and der'sul'dam and even damanae who serve the Dark One.  The big question is how many of them are in a position to affect TG (that is, how many of them crossed the Aryth Ocean with the Corenne.

 

Suroth states that there a very very few darkfriends amongst the sul'dam.

 

And as for Darkfriend amongst the Kin. Its very unlikely too, because the Shadow knows no more of their organisation than anyone--and at one stage two of the Forsaken seperately were tapping darkfriends in their area looking for the cache. They would have been contacted.

 

Why hasnt anyone mentioned damane? how many are there? (adding in the roughly 400 former shaido wise women). Adding to that, the suldam can learn to channel, and know the forms of the weaves, so if they can get a crash course, youll triple the amount of channellers there

 

Well, firstly, the Seanchan caught only a little over 200 to 250 of the Wise Ones. That being said, Seanchan find all sparkers in their own lands, which are not only about tripple the size of the westlands, but by all accounts highly over-populated. RJ has also said that the percentage of channelers in their population has stayed higher as well because the sul'dam breed.

 

My guess is roughly around 4,000 damane were sent with the Corenne. At the time they last had contact with the Westlands the Tower numbered roughly 3,000 in its ranks. They would have, but nessesity, have sent enough to deal with that. It's possible they sent even more, though i doubt it would get far about 5,000. To do so would strip the Empire of too much strength.

 

From there they have been gathering every woman in all three countries, and accross the Almoth as well. So, all the untapped sparkers, as well as controlling three coastal countries, the places where the Tower's dropkicks run to hide. My guess therefore is that they have gathered somewhere between one and three thousand since arriving. My guess would be closer to one though, as i feel many of the Kin are skilled enough in evasion to have made it out, and it is only with total absortion of the Kin that i see it reaching those numbers.

 

So, in the end, I'd guess the Seanchan somewhere between 5,000 and 9,000 damane, and i'd put the number around 6,000. Keep in mind though that they also have somewhere around 25,000 sul'dam, though i dont see that coming into play until well after Tarmon Gai'don.

 

 

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  • 1 year later...

 

 

5. Odd Ones - DF Suldam and their charges, DF Kin (there have to be some), etc, etc.

 

I thinks its obvious at this point that there are plenty of darkfriends among the Seanchan.  I am sure that Suroth was far from the only darkfriend among them.  And therefore it stands to reason that there are sul'dam and der'sul'dam and even damanae who serve the Dark One.  The big question is how many of them are in a position to affect TG (that is, how many of them crossed the Aryth Ocean with the Corenne.

 

Suroth states that there a very very few darkfriends amongst the sul'dam

 

I'm drudging up this old topic in light of new discussions on the TGS chapters. While I agree w/Luckers about Suroth's statement on the DF's amongst the suldamn, it may also speak volumes by ommission. Are there DF's in the damane ranks? The high blood? Could we expect another ship from Seanchan w/DF damane and suldam?

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