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Elaida and Siuan


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I have been trying for awhile now to figure what evidence that Elaida has against Siuan. She is only guessing about Rand being able to channel(at that time). She talks to the girl at the farm, but I don't understand what she over heard to be able to tell Elaida that is so damning. It just seems to me that is all she has was not enough to go to the hall with. I don't understand why Siuan was deposed because she has a relation with Rand, when Elaide knows the same things(Rand must be at the last battle) and she tries a relation with Rand too. Seems she is just as guilty as what Siuan did. 

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She did´nt really have enough.

 

She´s a good speaker, and she had several sisters in the hall in her pocket, many thanks to alviarin. Add to that the fact that Siuan wasent well liked, and the red had a serious issue with no red having been chosen amyrlin for a damn long time.

 

If her evidence had been fireproof, she would have called the entire hall and done it completely according to law and openly, and not just barely following the minimum things enough to being able to just call it legal.

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I've often wondered about that girl at the farm. I'll have to re-read to remember for sure if it says or if I just got the impression, but I always assumed that that girl was killed by Elaida using the power. It seemed that she started by beating her with it for information. Could someone clear this for me?

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I always assumed she was killed by Alviarin.  She was working with Elaida at that point (if i remember correctly!) and being killed witht he power like that seems to me to indicate BA.

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well i havent dragged the books out yet to check but as i recall elaida went to talk to the girl alone, started strapping her with the power asking questions and it says she stopped screaming and made no more noise. or something on that order

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Eliada never questioned that novice, she dismissed the girl as a fool as soon as they spoke outside of Suian's study.  The girl was kill by a black sister, I do not believe we are ever told who.

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Indeed, Algspkr is correct. It definately wasn't Elaida given the nature of the murder construes using the Power as a weapon, and Elaida is still bound by the Oaths.

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I always wondered how Elaida disposed Siuan so easily, until I did a few re-reads.  There is a good place in the first few books when Siuan leaves the tower and meets up with Moiraine after they find the Horn.  Siuan has a conversation with Moiraine about the state of affairs in the White Tower.  She states that the Hall is ready to send Moiraine off to a farm and that the Blues have lost one of there long time allies in the tower.  Siuan even had trouble leaving the tower, the Hall did not think she should have left.  After I read this a few times, I got a better impression of what the Hall and the tower thought of the Blues and Siuan at the time.  Both the Blues and Siuan were already developing (or had) a bad reputation.  Moiraine's actions made things worse. 

 

By the time I got to where Siuan is actually diposed in the books, I forgot most of this.  But this last time I read it more carefully.  I think some of the Hall was more than happy to get rid of Siuan.  Add to this Elaid'a ambition and Alviarin's influence as well as the state of affairs outside the tower and I am surprised it did not happen sooner. 

 

If you get a chance re-read that section where Siuan leaves to Tower and meets up with Moiraine.  If I had a copy of the books, I would post it. 

 

 

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Everyones already got to the truth about how Elaida managed to usurp Siuan, but what do people expect for AMoL and their reunion.

 

Personally I'd like to see Siuan do some physical slapping around, but I think realistically Egwene won't let her and won't even still Elaida but allow her to return the red ajah, alternatively Elaida could be killed/captured in the Seanchan attack and Egwene will take over the Tower that much more smoothly.

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Everyones already got to the truth about how Elaida managed to usurp Siuan, but what do people expect for AMoL and their reunion.

 

Personally I'd like to see Siuan do some physical slapping around, but I think realistically Egwene won't let her and won't even still Elaida but allow her to return the red ajah, alternatively Elaida could be killed/captured in the Seanchan attack and Egwene will take over the Tower that much more smoothly.

 

Lets see,  She kidnapped a sitting ruler, she has totaly broken the tower.  She has striped Aes Sedai of their rightful place, she has disbanded the blue ajah, that is just a few of Elidia's crimes.  Egwene, will never let Elida just crawl back to being a red.  Not only that, how can the red go on as before?  by all we red several reds will be bonded to Asha Men,  No i fear the red is done.  and there is no way any blue sitter will accpet Elidia just crawling back, this will be a law thing, and Egwewne will not have the last say in it, the hall will meet out justice, that is if there is ever a trial at all.

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I think egwene is going ot have a tight hold on the halls reigns for some time after TG, given of corse she survives it.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]            starwars1.gif

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Elaida bullied herself into the position of deposing Suian, Elaida is always seen as being ambitious to the point where she becomes Amrylin to fulfil that ambition , but without any real purpose after that ( immediatley after becoming Amrylin she proceeds with the construction of her own tower/palace, despite the fact that she knows TG is approaching fast.

Elaida hated both Suian and Moraine , this goes back to when Suian and Moraine were accepted together and looked like becoming much stronger than Elaida (to know that a couple of young girl's will far outstrip you would be hard for Elaida) also the fact that S and M put mice in her bed ( or tried to ) the day they passed the test for the shawl. that in revenge for Elaida's "tuition" for them to help pass the test for the shawl ( see New Spring for details).

in other words there didnt need to be much of a reason for Elaida to depose Suian, only a plausable excuse. Even though there were reasons for doing things the way she had Suian still left herself open to the hostile takeover by Elaida

 

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Suian really could not have guessed at Elaidas plan. She kept herself busy doing what needed to be done. I for one feel that S will have no chance to harm or inflict revenge either. For one thing her activities inside and outside(By this I mean the kidnapping and proclamation) the tower she will most certainly be deposed. I am also thinking she may fall in the Seanchan attack. To lose and Armlyin, even a crappy one, at this time would shake the tower to its foundation. That takes care of Egwenes foretelling. She steps up to resolidify the tower for TG. Thats just my take.

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I always kinda imagined a funny scene, Egwene is Attending Elaida as stated in KOD, and the Seanchan attack one busts in and says "Who Is The Armlyin" and Elaida dose a doubt take and tossed the stole to Egwene points to her and says "She IS!!" and Jumps out the window hehe.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

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I dunno that shed have that kind of presence of mind shed be all like

 

HOW DARE YOU IMPEDE THE ARMLYN BLAH BLAH WHEN I SPEAK THRONES OBEY BLAH BLAH...

 

Then a suldam just sheilds her and gags her. Then to make mesures worst Egwene will more than likley take out those particular invaders and Eladia may be so gratefull shell give up the stole. True humiliation.

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Lets see,  She kidnapped a sitting ruler, she has totaly broken the tower.  She has striped Aes Sedai of their rightful place, she has disbanded the blue ajah, that is just a few of Elidia's crimes.  Egwene, will never let Elida just crawl back to being a red.  Not only that, how can the red go on as before?  by all we red several reds will be bonded to Asha Men,  No i fear the red is done.

 

From Egwenes POVs it seems unlikely that the Red Ajah will dissolve. After the Tower learns that Saidin has been cleansed, and with the experiences of bonds both ways between Ashaman and AS, I think there will be a restructure of what the Reds assignemnt is. Perhaps relations to channeling men, relations with the Black Tower (which I desperately hope either will become a part of the White Tower or be renamed after Taims fall!)

 

I do NOT think the Red will be dissolved, yet their purpose is gone. There will still be a sevenstriped stole after AMOL.

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I'm only on book 8 so please feel free to advise me if other events have changed things in the meantime, but I wonder if, when Egwene discovers just how under Alviarin's thumb Elaida is, how much of what has happened was Alviarin's scheming, whether she will pity Elaida slightly. Siuan too. She is not a stupid woman, she will see the way in which Alviarin has controlled Elaida. Perhaps Elaida will have a place - a new place, but still a place, in the Tower after it is healed?

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Even when Elaida is taken captive by Egwene's Aes Sedai (in theory) Egwene will still have control of her through the War Act, so she will be the one who decides what happens - though of course there will be consequences no matter how moderate or radical her decision is. I still think she will allow Elaida back as a Red Sister with the whole Ajah getting a new purpose decided within the Ajah.

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I'm under the impression that Eliada will be the first collered when the Seanchan attack, this seems likely as her appartment is by far the highest in the tower, and the Seanchan are likely to be coming from the roof.

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Lets see,  She kidnapped a sitting ruler, she has totaly broken the tower.  She has striped Aes Sedai of their rightful place, she has disbanded the blue ajah, that is just a few of Elidia's crimes.  Egwene, will never let Elida just crawl back to being a red.  Not only that, how can the red go on as before?  by all we red several reds will be bonded to Asha Men,  No i fear the red is done.

 

From Egwenes POVs it seems unlikely that the Red Ajah will dissolve. After the Tower learns that Saidin has been cleansed, and with the experiences of bonds both ways between Ashaman and AS, I think there will be a restructure of what the Reds assignemnt is. Perhaps relations to channeling men, relations with the Black Tower (which I desperately hope either will become a part of the White Tower or be renamed after Taims fall!)

 

I do NOT think the Red will be dissolved, yet their purpose is gone. There will still be a sevenstriped stole after AMOL.

 

The Red Ajah wont do that, they actually hate all men.

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Unfortunatly for the Red it will be either change or be dissolved. I like the idea of Eladia getting collared even if its for a short time. Considering Mats new possition will make her stay under an adam a short lived one. That is the true thing I want to see, Mats role in the Seanchan WT attack.

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Another Elaida-and-Siuan question:

How does announcing that Siuan has been executed when she hasn't fit with the Three Oaths? Are Aes Sedai allowed to order people to lie? In that case, they could just get an Accepted, a Warder or a Tower guard to write out the notices (Aes Sedai are unable to write lies, not just speak them).

Otherwise, did Alviarin do it? And do the others know that she did?

 

Note: Killing Alric didn't violate the Oaths- he would probably have attacked Elaida's party as they came in, thus making it self-defence, and even if he didn't, he wasn't killed with the Power.

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The two towers will remain seperate, by the love of the creator i hope it is so..i don't wanna see the ash'aman get disbanded just so they get a pretty stole to wear o.O seems wrong and unhealthy. And reinvention of the red is needed, and nessicary in the current situation and i do think the most likely road is "relations" with the male side of the one power. co-operation between the two, etc etc. i know there all man hating...but radical change is not something that simply does not happen.

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Another Elaida-and-Siuan question:

How does announcing that Siuan has been executed when she hasn't fit with the Three Oaths? Are Aes Sedai allowed to order people to lie? In that case, they could just get an Accepted, a Warder or a Tower guard to write out the notices (Aes Sedai are unable to write lies, not just speak them).

Otherwise, did Alviarin do it? And do the others know that she did?

 

Note: Killing Alric didn't violate the Oaths- he would probably have attacked Elaida's party as they came in, thus making it self-defence, and even if he didn't, he wasn't killed with the Power.

 

 

Yeah the 3 oaths don't apply to murder commited by means other than the power. So techinacly any Aes`Sedai could kill anyone they want as long as they don't use the power. It wouldn't violate the oaths by any description.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]          starwars1.gif

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