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Is Verin, as Black Ajah, after the Horn of Valere?


Evad Bel-Burg
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Hey everyone, had an interesting idea after listening to one of the podcasts yesterday: What if Verin is Black Ajah, and she is after the Horn of Valere?

 

I've always thought that Verin acted a bit strange, even for an Aes Sedai. Now imagine this: In KOD, when we see her for the last time, she's on her way somewhere. Maybe to Mat, Thom, Olver? Let's say Mat rescues Moirraine; they exit the Tower of Genjei (or wherever they come out) and are set upon by Verin. If she is Black Ajah, she would be in an excellent position to take over the Horn from Mat (since it seems she knows exactly where it is and has been hiding it all along). If she manages to kill Mat (and Moirraine, who would defend him, thereby depriving Rand of her help too) and Thom, she would be the only one able to use the Horn. Mat, as a ta'veren wouldn't be with Rand at Tarmon Gaidon, and whichever Chosen in charge of Verin would also find himself/herself in a tight spot. Verin, as Aes Sedai, could rise to Nae'blis!

 

So what do you all think? (Don't know if this has been discussed before, so please don't pound me if it has!) :-)

 

 

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Verin is not Black Ajah. Her own POVs bear this out. At one point she decides against poisoning Cadsuane when Cadsuane reveals she plans on being at Rand's side at TG.

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Guest The Thin Inn Keeper

Verin is one of the great talking points of WOT. Type "Verin Mathwin theories" into google and see what comes up.

 

As mentioned above, her POVs pretty much prove she isn't Black. It's quite funny to see her mental gymnastics as she avoids "lying" to herself.

 

The consensus is that she's a bit shifty. She isn't Black, but she has an agenda that other Aes Sedai might not approve of. She definately wants Rand at TG though.

 

There's a theory that she's a member of a secret Ajah dedicated to fighting the Black. All her experience of the Black might support this. Like I said, put about a day aside and read the articles.

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I don't think Verin is black either.

She seems to have her own agenda, and as has been suggested before, probably knows where the horn is and might try to bing it to/or tell Matt where it is.

I think she is just one of those characters Jordan used to keep us guessing...ya know, create interest.

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Aside from Verin being Black Ajah or not, if she wanted the Horn she could have taken it in TDR easily.

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there are two questions in this one;

 

1. Is Verin BA? I dont think so. She's not 'normal', I've often wondered if she's taken some other oaths or entered into a 'new' ajah, perhaps along with Moiraine and Siuan (personal thoughts).

 

2. Does she want the Horn? Again, I think she'd love to study it, but wasnt she the only AS there when it was blown? She KNOWS Mat blew it and is therefore (we think) still bound to it. Surely it would be more fascinating to study it alongside Mat?

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I'm pretty sure verin is just another Siuan, Moiraine, Cadsuanne ect. she set herself the task of making sure the dragon would reach TG, and that is what she is doing. She's been at it for a very long time, so she probably has had some hint of foretelling from tarna or some other. Or she just read so much of the prophecy's that she convinced herself that it was time and that she had to involve herself.

 

On a completely seperate tangent, The DO did order the forsaken to leave Rand alone for a time in the early books. Perhaps she is not necessarily Black Ajah, but working for morindin/ishy and is just working on her last set of firm orders. Its an interesting line of thought.

 

 

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Cool thankyou all for replying and giving your opinions. :-) I will definately read up a bit more on all the theories concerning Verin and really see if my thought has more or less merit than I thought it did.

 

Thanks again,

Evad

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My opinion is that Verin is doing one of two things:

 

First Possibility: She is heading to Tar Valon to get the Horn as soon as possible because she knows it will be necessary for victory in the Last Battle.

 

Second Possibility: She is heading to the Borderland Army to bring them over to Rand because she knows that that is also necessary for Rand to win the Last Battle.

 

Third Possiblity: She is doing a combination of both of the above.

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If it were not for one little detail, I would be quite sure she was going to hook up with Mat. Possibly with an attempt to get the Horn first, but I can't really see her taking such a risk strolling around the WT while Elaida is still in charge would be.

 

She has spent quite some time with first Perrin in the TR, and then Rand. But she has not spent any time with Mat since she brought him to the WT in TDR, and well, he was not quite having the days of his life back then...So she should be quite interested in checking in on the third of the ta'veren-kids, especially since she most likely is well aware Mat is mentioned in the prophecies as well.

 

But there is this tiny problem of her not having a clue where the hell Mat is.

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Verin is not Black Ajah. Her own POVs bear this out. At one point she decides against poisoning Cadsuane when Cadsuane reveals she plans on being at Rand's side at TG.

 

I don't believe Verin is of the Black but just because she decides against poisoning Cadsuane when Cadsuane reveals she's on Rand's side isn't proof that she's one of the good guys. Take Eliza, I think that's her name. Remember she's one of the oath sworn Aes Sedai to Rand and a black and her reason for being by Rand's side and getting him to Taimon Gaidon is so the Dark One can kill him there. So theoretically having Rand reach the Last Battle might be one of Verin's goals even if she is Black and having Cadsuane there to guard him is one heck of a guanrentee for his survival.

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Elza is hardly a good comparison since her aiding Rand results from Verin compelling her to--her mental gymnastics result from her trying to justify her compelled need to help Rand.

 

And its more than just her not poisoning Cadsuane, its how she did it. And its her compelling those Aes Sedai to aid Rand, and its the way she reacted to Graendal...

 

But the bottom line of it all is, Verin is not Black Ajah.

 

But there is this tiny problem of her not having a clue where the hell Mat is.

 

Maybe she knows Ishamael's trick? Also, keep in mind Nynaeve is there, and Nynaeve knew Mat's whereabouts. With that knowledge it would basically mean Mat would end up in Illian or in Murandy.

 

But yeah, my guess is that she intends to get the Horn and bring it to Rand, so that its there when Mat turns up again.

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Luckers said:

Maybe she knows Ishamael's trick? Also, keep in mind Nynaeve is there, and Nynaeve knew Mat's whereabouts. With that knowledge it would basically mean Mat would end up in Illian or in Murandy.

 

Exactly.  Based off of a general idea of where Mat is (an army is pretty hard to hide) and the fact that she has Healed him about 2000 times during their trip from Toman Head to the Tower, it shouldn't be too hard for a capable AS such as Verin to locate Mat.

 

It also wouldn't be that difficult for her to sneak into the Tower (especially if she is able to Travel).  She could be in and out before anyone even realized she was there.

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Maybe she knows Ishamael's trick? Also, keep in mind Nynaeve is there, and Nynaeve knew Mat's whereabouts. With that knowledge it would basically mean Mat would end up in Illian or in Murandy.

 

But all Nynaeve knows is that Mat was still in Ebou Dar when they left, and that the Seanchan attacked the city. For all she knows Mat might be dead, held prisoner by the Seanchan, hiding in Ebou Dar or on the run. If he's on the run, he could be in Illian, in Murandy trying to get to Caemlyn, in Amadacia trying to get to Salidar, or on a boat heading straight to Tear. A lot of ground to cover even for someone who knows how to Travel. And even if Verin learns about where the band is, there is no certainity Mat will still e with them once she reaches them, as I doubt Mat would bring the Band when he goes to the ToG.

 

Verin just going to secure the Horn seems like a safer bet. Secure the Horn, and if she manages to learn where Mat is, bring it to him, otherwise bring it back to Rand, and wait for Mat to show up.

 

Which could lead to one of those funny encounters, Verin sneaking around in the WT, avoiding both Elaidas Aes Sedai as well as the Seanchan attackers, just to bump into Mat and Moiraine. Not extremely likely, but it would be fun ;D

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I agree. I personally think it more likely that Verin's intentions were merely to secure the Horn. That being said, there are ways she could go about locating him. Ishamael's trick with finding ta'veren, extrapolation, information brought to her from her Eyes and Ears--and Davian had a good point about the healing locator. I'd forgotten about that.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Aussie, I have to agree about Verin being able to lie.  I think she was able to get out of the Oaths somehow, which would allow her to lie.  That would also explaing how she's able to use Compulsion against other Aes Sedai, and how she could contemplate poisoning Cadsuane. 

 

She was injured in some sort of incident with a Ter Angreal, maybe that released the Oaths?

 

Remember the women of the Kin who never swore on the Oath Rod, there are several of them who are over 400 years old, Reann being one.  If Verin had somehow been released from the Oaths it would ALSO allow her to live a lot longer than the average Aes Sedai.

 

Many times in the books and here on the forum there has been speculation about Verin's age.  She has some gray hair and seems to know a lot of stuff that her peers don't know.  Other threads have discussed whether her father was one of the generals inside Mat's head, which would mean she's really pretty old. 

 

 

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Verin is definately a big deal.  We just don't know how big or why just yet.  I keep thinking about how the Aes Sedi are revered and thought to be somehow all knowing and wise by the general populace.  They are loved, hated, or feared by most everybody but given a healthy bit of respect by all, regardless of their personal feelings.  But after reading a bit we come to know that they are mostly bumbling busy bodies who meddle in others business and make more mistakes than most.  They are broken up into power hungry factions which plot against one another and their leaders.  Even the dark sisters are groveling idiots at times. 

 

Verin is the exception, along with Moraine.  We know Moraine was on a mission of sorts and had a co-consipritor in Suian.  They were working twoard a common goal which they both supported.  But what is Verin up to?  She works alone and her composure is sure.  She thinks things through and is never rash.  She makes sound decisions and never gives up her true purpose.  In short, she is nothing at all like the other sisters.  This leads me to believe she isn't one of the other sisters per say.  She is definately Aes Sedi, but from which age?  Nothing has ever been mentioned that would lead one to believe she is from another age but I have to wonder.  Her connection and interest in Mat makes me very curious.  She knows he has memories from back in the day, and that he speaks the Old Tongue on occasion, but she doesn't react in the way I would expect Brown sister to react.  She seems cunning and knows far more than she should, or at least in my interpretation she is far more knowledgeable than she should be.  This can be dismissed as happenstance since she is, after all, a Brown but she seems to know more than any of the other Browns.  She didn't even bat an eye when she found out Rand was the Dragon.  It is almost as if she knows what is going to happen and is ready before it does.  I don't think she is Black for a second but I do think she is working to an end that is known only to her and none of the other sisters.

 

modification:  spelling R hard

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What if Verin is a reformed Black Ajah member who managed to disassociate herself from her cell?  This would still give her the ageless face but free her from the oaths as such.  Of course, as a reformed member of the Black, she would still try to keep the oaths and she wouldn't walk up to the Hall and say 'Hi, I'm a former Black sister who sees the error of her ways."  In book 8 she recalls that her curiosity got her into trouble and maybe she was curious about the Dark, realized it was no good, and decided to come back to the Light.

 

 

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Why do people insist on saying that Verin can lie? She has not yet been caught in a lie, so we have not one confirmed example of her being a lier. In fact (IIRC), not one thing she has done in the books is a violation of the three oaths. People will probably point to TGH, "Moiraine Sedai sent me", but that has been discussed to death, and that is not necessarily a lie, simply a matter of Verin interpreting Moiraine's words in a way that allows her to say that she sent her. Maybe she can lie. But it is far from a sure thing.

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Why do people insist on saying that Verin can lie? She has not yet been caught in a lie, so we have not one confirmed example of her being a lier. In fact (IIRC), not one thing she has done in the books is a violation of the three oaths. People will probably point to TGH, "Moiraine Sedai sent me", but that has been discussed to death, and that is not necessarily a lie, simply a matter of Verin interpreting Moiraine's words in a way that allows her to say that she sent her. Maybe she can lie. But it is far from a sure thing.

 

Technically it is a lie, if Verin said "Moiraine Sedai wanted someone to keep a watch out for you." shed have gotten away with it. She said straight out "Moraine sent me", which was told to be a lie a bit later by Moiraine.

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Why do people insist on saying that Verin can lie? She has not yet been caught in a lie, so we have not one confirmed example of her being a lier. In fact (IIRC), not one thing she has done in the books is a violation of the three oaths. People will probably point to TGH, "Moiraine Sedai sent me", but that has been discussed to death, and that is not necessarily a lie, simply a matter of Verin interpreting Moiraine's words in a way that allows her to say that she sent her. Maybe she can lie. But it is far from a sure thing.
Technically it is a lie, if Verin said "Moiraine Sedai wanted someone to keep a watch out for you." shed have gotten away with it. She said straight out "Moraine sent me", which was told to be a lie a bit later by Moiraine.
It's typical Aes Sedai truth twisting. Nothing special, they all do it. And yet Verin is the only one that gets people saying that she is free of one or more oaths, despite no evidence for and some against.

 

verin can lie. I think she took the oath of lying off herself, but has kept the others
Certainly this is not borne out by the facts, any more than Moiraine can lie, or Elaida can, or Cadsuane or anyone else who should be bound against lying.
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It's typical Aes Sedai truth twisting. Nothing special, they all do it. And yet Verin is the only one that gets people saying that she is free of one or more oaths, despite no evidence for and some against.

 

Certainly this is not borne out by the facts, any more than Moiraine can lie, or Elaida can, or Cadsuane or anyone else who should be bound against lying.

 

I could not agree more.

 

Verin may indeed turn out to be BA, but I doubt it.    We have had many POVs from her and those showed nothing to point in that direction.    The same goes for Lying, we have had many POVs from her and each and every time she says something questionable, she ALWAYS thinks of how what she says meets the requirement "not to be a lie" if viewed in the context that she uses.

 

Admitted, Verin is a very complicated and interesting character.    I can see why so many people are confused by her.  I hope we get some of her answers in the last book.

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Why do people insist on saying that Verin can lie? She has not yet been caught in a lie, so we have not one confirmed example of her being a lier. In fact (IIRC), not one thing she has done in the books is a violation of the three oaths. People will probably point to TGH, "Moiraine Sedai sent me", but that has been discussed to death, and that is not necessarily a lie, simply a matter of Verin interpreting Moiraine's words in a way that allows her to say that she sent her. Maybe she can lie. But it is far from a sure thing.
Technically it is a lie, if Verin said "Moiraine Sedai wanted someone to keep a watch out for you." shed have gotten away with it. She said straight out "Moraine sent me", which was told to be a lie a bit later by Moiraine.
It's typical Aes Sedai truth twisting. Nothing special, they all do it. And yet Verin is the only one that gets people saying that she is free of one or more oaths, despite no evidence for and some against.

 

verin can lie. I think she took the oath of lying off herself, but has kept the others
Certainly this is not borne out by the facts, any more than Moiraine can lie, or Elaida can, or Cadsuane or anyone else who should be bound against lying.

 

I also think Verin can lie, but I do not think she is Black.  If she were she would have taken the horn and killed mat when she had the chance.  We know if one of the three dies the cause is over. So if she were a Black sister she could have ended the threat to the dark there on the spot by taking out Rand, Mat, or Perrin.   

 

The simple act of saying "Moraine sent me" is a lie plain and simple.  Twisting truth is Moraine saying "You may call me Mistress Whatever", I'll buy that one but "Moraine sent me" is what it is, a lie. 

 

But also keep in mind that Verin had the list of all the angreals (possible seplling issue there) that were examined and what their known or suspected purposes were.  Its quite possible that she freed herself from the three oaths simply because she didn't like being bound by them.  She would almost certainly have known which rod/artifact to use and she also remembers the sister who examined those items as if they actually knew one another.  I'd argue that they had to know one another.  If they didn't Verin wouldn't be in poscession of all her notes.  She knew things that no others had a clue about.  I would think that these notes would have been fairly important to the tower and would not have fallen into Verin's hands unless given to her by the sister who wrote them, Nadeal was her last name I think.  This knowledge was and is vitally important to the tower and those notes would not have simply vanished to be found by Verin.

So I think Verin is much older than she seems.

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