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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

a curious death


Darian
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In one of the book, I forget which ;D, there were a series of murders committed..including the philosopher of the school in caihrien; who do u suppose sent the ghollum to kill him? theres definitely a reason for his death i suppose.  i think he knew too much of what happens to the wheel and that there will come a time when people will forget about the dark one and the same thing will repeat again with the drilling of the bore etc.  this also sheds some serious light regarding the relationship between Meirin(lanfear) and the DO.  he is extremely protective of her and risks nothing in losing her for example killed by balefire.  he needs her whole in the pattern so that when the wheel repeats itself, Lanfear would be spung out of the pattern once again so that the dark one would be freed again and maybe, that would be the time he succeeds.  the darkone is the only one that knows that this age was not the first age that he was almost freed...he must be getting very desperate. lol  ;D

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Actually this is a really good point.  According to the stephen cooper timeline, Fel is killed in carhien 6-7 days before the gholam shows up in Ebou Dar.  We know that shadowspwan can't make the trip through a gateway.  Did Ishy send the gholam to carhien, just to have sammy promise carradin some "help" the next day and then go to Carhien to send the gholam through the ways?

 

How did the ghoalm make the trip in 6-7 days?

Did Sammy send the gholam to kill Herid Fel, or did he just find out about it and use the gholam after Ishy was done with it?

Are there 2 gholams running around?

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Just in regards to what the OP said. One thing I don't get is why you think the DO is protective or kind towards Mierin. I mean I haven't read the books in a while but I still remember that there was always friction between the DO and Mierin, especially evident when they meet in The World of Dreams and Mierin says something to the effect of "You make free use of MY DOMAIN" and the DO replies "Your Domain? Don't forget who you serve" or something like that. I mean she always thought she was better than the DO and DO hated that. 

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Just in regards to what the OP said. One thing I don't get is why you think the DO is protective or kind towards Mierin. I mean I haven't read the books in a while but I still remember that there was always friction between the DO and Mierin, especially evident when they meet in The World of Dreams and Mierin says something to the effect of "You make free use of MY DOMAIN" and the DO replies "Your Domain? Don't forget who you serve" or something like that. I mean she always thought she was better than the DO and DO hated that. 

Two things.  First it is far less confusing if you call her Lanfear or Cyndane.  And second that was not the Dark One she was speaking with it was Ishameal/Moridin.

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Are there 2 gholams running around?

 

Weren't there 12 gholam created?  I think i remember reading that somewhere. If that's the case then another forsaken might have stumbled across a stasis box with one in it.

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Are there 2 gholams running around?

 

Weren't there 12 gholam created?  I think i remember reading that somewhere. If that's the case then another forsaken might have stumbled across a stasis box with one in it.

 

There were six of them, three male and three female.

 

What bothers me with a gholam killing Fel is that it is overkill, to say the list. Come on, he was a fragile old man, any street-thug could have done the job. But no, the shadow sends one of the most potent killers they have.

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They wanted him dead, with no rooms for mistakes. That Fel and Barthanes was killed in the same mansion, in pretty much the same way, lends to the thought that there are two active Gholams. One male, working in Altara at the moment, and one unknown, based in Cairhien. If you have the best at your disposal, why not use it?

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To me it seems using a gholam to kill Barthanes might have been more than just a wish to see him dead. The gholam is not exactly discrete, which might have helped escalating what pretty much came to a civil war.

 

And with Fel, had they just wanted him dead, they could have used Slayer, and ordered him to make it look like a robbery. Sending in a gholam screams of the Shadow being behind it. An attempt to make Rand go after Sammael?

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And with Fel, had they just wanted him dead, they could have used Slayer, and ordered him to make it look like a robbery. Sending in a gholam screams of the Shadow being behind it. An attempt to make Rand go after Sammael?

 

Wow - I never even considered that....interesting idea.  They knew Rand would find out all the details about Fel's murder...and they didn't try to hide how it was done. 

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To me it seems using a gholam to kill Barthanes might have been more than just a wish to see him dead. The gholam is not exactly discrete, which might have helped escalating what pretty much came to a civil war.

 

And with Fel, had they just wanted him dead, they could have used Slayer, and ordered him to make it look like a robbery. Sending in a gholam screams of the Shadow being behind it. An attempt to make Rand go after Sammael?

I thought Thom killed Barthanes.  Doesn't he say something like "You run in to so many problems for killing someone, even if the need killing." The next time we see him with Mat.

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What would this possibly have to do with Lanfear?

 

Fel posed a threat to the DO because he had an idea of how Rand would win TG. The DO does not care one bit about the forsaken, as long as there are enough of them around to do the job. He does however care quite a bit about the outcome of TG.

 

As for Lanfears eventual part in future Ages, major events repeat themselves, and drilling the Bore is quite a major event. Next time the AOL comes around, someone will drill the Bore. The odds that Lanfears future incarnation would be one of them are quite small, to say the least.

 

 

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Even if it is going to be the Lanfear soul drilling the thing each time, what of it? Balefire doesn't destroy the soul, it just kills back in time... the soul will still be born again in due time, just because the person was killed back in time, it's gone on back to the wheel or the afterlife or whatever, ready to be spun out in due time, before the Dark One can notice that it's been killed (dont get started thinking about temporal shit).

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When I think about it I guess you're right Tyrell. I always used to think that the threads in the pattern were the souls, and when you Balefired a thread you cut it off. No more, final death, ect. But give that we now know that the DO can resurrect Balefired (weak BF) people the soul would have to remain.

 

Thanks for enlightening me. :)

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Even if it is going to be the Lanfear soul drilling the thing each time, what of it? Balefire doesn't destroy the soul, it just kills back in time... the soul will still be born again in due time, just because the person was killed back in time, it's gone on back to the wheel or the afterlife or whatever, ready to be spun out in due time, before the Dark One can notice that it's been killed (dont get started thinking about temporal shit).

It seems that the DO is a little bit more desperate in this age; I agree that he should have been a little more discrete about killing the old guy, obviously such a gruesome murder would attract unwanted attention.  I guess lanfear in previous ages must have done the same thing to defy the Dark One, which explains the total control DO has over her.  However, if balefire "merely kills" back in time, how come the DO (who is probably the creator's opposite)cannot manage to bring back Rahvin, this indicates that balefire probably does more than just kill....or could it just mean that the DO's ability is still limited in the prison? 

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I'm pretty sure that what it means is that the Dark One doesn't exist outside of time, meaning that he can't act on something that happens in the past, only the present, infact I believe he says as much in... Lord of Chaos? something along the lines of

 

"EVEN I CAN NOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME, I PITTY DA FOOL, DEMANDRED"

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I'm pretty sure that what it means is that the Dark One doesn't exist outside of time, meaning that he can't act on something that happens in the past, only the present, infact I believe he says as much in... Lord of Chaos? something along the lines of

 

"EVEN I CAN NOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME, I PITTY DA FOOL, DEMANDRED"

From what I understand of this quote and what RJ has said about recycling BF'ed Forsaken I take it to mean that when a person dies their soul hangs out near their body for a little while.  Near their body could be as large an area as all of conventional existance, or an area the size of a chipmonk, but it has to be in the living realm for the Dark One to recycle it.  The time the soul hangs around is almost certainly less than twenty minutes as that seems to be about the time it Rand kill Rhavin.

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Thom killed Galldrian, not Barthanes. The men who killed Dena and attacked Thom claimed to be Barthanes', but the innkeeper told him they rreally are Galldrians.

 

barthanes was torn limb from limb, which is pretty much the gholams MO.

 

True, but we've also seen what the Forsaken are capable of- for example, look what Lanfear did to Kadere Hadnan in TFOH right before her and Moiraine fell through the twisted stone door TA. Pretty nasty stuff, that!

 

Personally, I agree that it probably was a Gholam, but it is also very likely that it could have been a Forsaken if he was a DF that angered them enough....

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