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shaidar haran = fain's lapdog


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When the white cloaks were in the two rivers, and fain had a fade chained in this tent, and was threatening it, the fade agreed to do as fain wanted..  fain settled down to talk of plans and what not, but that fade is never mentioned again as far as i know.  It has to be the fade named shaidar haran.  remember the stones board and "It's hard to lose when you play both sides of the board"  I think that through shaidar haran, fain has taken control of the forsaken. 

 

Thoughts?

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I dont think I've got to / remember this bit, but what evidence is there to suggest that it's Shaidar Haran, rather than any other Fade? Remember SH is more than a myrrdraal really.

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And fain is more than a dark friend. 

I suspect fain wants the dark one dead as bad as any of the good guys.  but fain doesn't care if he takes the world out with him.  There's talk in the shadow rising about all this during that scene at the white cloak camp. 

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I know the scene you are talking about, my time line may be off. but I am sure that the fade is mentioned again.  After fain sets up the chindren to try and hit rand.  remember the scene where he is in the house and the kid comes running to tell fain something.  fain mentions only having a fade, a few trollocs and a few friends of the dark. 

 

Shaidar Haran is mentioned at the end of book 6, when demandred is at the pit of doom.

 

He says something like he did not even care that Shaidar Haran was there to witness. you can be sure, that there is no way fain would let him anywhere near the bore.

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If I remember correctly, there's been at least two vesions of SH during the series.  The first is a regular Fade that has a sense of humor that appears before the super Fade version of SH appears.  There's a quote somewhere from RJ that says the first Fade with a sense of humor was kinda like a Beta version of SH.  Even if Fain was able to capture the Beta SH, he would have no control over the super Fade version of SH.  

 

Besides, with SH's access to the DO and special powers, why would he honor any plans that he had made with Fain?  

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I don't think Shaidar Haran is Fain's lapdog.

 

Could it be that the fade is Moredeth(the guys from SL)?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question in the second line.  Mordeth and Fain are the now same person. 

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Shaidar Haran seems to be even above the Forsaken (except Moridin perhaps), and it appears he can channel as well, or something like that. And I think he has stated that he's the Dark One's right hand, not to mention that the Dark One would not allow Fain anywhere near Shayol Ghul (sp.

And with all respect to Fain's powers, I am not sure he can dominate SH. A normal Myrddraal (sp), yes, the Super Fade, very unlikely.

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Ah, is this earlier in the books? Is this then not the fade that Fain nailed to a door in the village where Rand had his 'waking dream'?

 

No two differant fades, the fade that was nailed to the door, was book two.  the fade i mentioned was first seen in book 4, and last mentioned in book 6.

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Fain's pet fade is mentioned when Fain was camped out in Caemlyn.  There is no mention that this Fade is ten feet tall. 

 

Since Fades are trolloc offspring, it would be fairly easy for the DO to have one brought to SG for "upgrades"  ie.  the first one's sense of humor of the Beta and imposing size of version 2.  Since SH's touch turns an aiel spear into a charred remnant, I personally believe SH would shred Padan fain in about two seconds. 

Fain tells his pet in TSR "I know how to hurt your sort..."  but this is no ordinary Fade.  I think Alviarin got it right.  This is more than a Fade, this is the DO making his physical presence felt in the world.  How else do you expain SH's ability to block the source.  He doesn't block the channelers, when he is around, the source is simply gone.  That's some pretty heavy-duty ability for an oversized Fade. 

 

My question is, who kills SH.  I think it'll be Mat.

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Fain's pet fade is mentioned when Fain was camped out in Caemlyn.  There is no mention that this Fade is ten feet tall. 

 

Since Fades are trolloc offspring, it would be fairly easy for the DO to have one brought to SG for "upgrades"  ie.  the first one's sense of humor of the Beta and imposing size of version 2.  Since SH's touch turns an aiel spear into a charred remnant, I personally believe SH would shred Padan fain in about two seconds. 

Fain tells his pet in TSR "I know how to hurt your sort..."  but this is no ordinary Fade.  I think Alviarin got it right.  This is more than a Fade, this is the DO making his physical presence felt in the world.  How else do you expain SH's ability to block the source.  He doesn't block the channelers, when he is around, the source is simply gone.  That's some pretty heavy-duty ability for an oversized Fade. 

 

My question is, who kills SH.  I think it'll be Mat.

 

I realy and truly think you underestimate Lord Fain,  IMHO Fain could indeed control SH.  Fain has no need for the True Source, Fain has no fear of Fades, those two thing would pretty much negate any power SH had over normal people. Fain, is alot more than normal.  :)

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Alviarin could have snapped Fain like a twig in the Tower storeroom if he hadn't mentioned going down to the Pit of Doom at Shayol Ghul.

 

Shaidar Haran killed two of Graendal's pets with a quick little squeeze to the neck, one in each hand. 

 

Fain's fast and he has the dagger but, in TSR he had to chain the Fade down and make some pretty serious threats, the nature of which aren't clear in order to gain it's obedience. 

 

I doubt SH could be controlled as handily.  This is the same being that has no qualms about putting a serious hurt on two female chosen, ahem.  Even Demandred and Semirhage, two of the most vile of the Chosen, admit to being uneasy in it's presence.

 

Actually, I'm starting to get really intrigued by the Hand of the Dark. 

 

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Alviarin could have snapped Fain like a twig in the Tower storeroom if he hadn't mentioned going down to the Pit of Doom at Shayol Ghul.

 

Shaidar Haran killed two of Graendal's pets with a quick little squeeze to the neck, one in each hand. 

 

Fain's fast and he has the dagger but, in TSR he had to chain the Fade down and make some pretty serious threats, the nature of which aren't clear in order to gain it's obedience. 

 

I doubt SH could be controlled as handily.  This is the same being that has no qualms about putting a serious hurt on two female chosen, ahem.  Even Demandred and Semirhage, two of the most vile of the Chosen, admit to being uneasy in it's presence.

 

Actually, I'm starting to get really intrigued by the Hand of the Dark. 

 

 

You are correct of course, however you are speaking of people who follow the Great Lord and fear the Great Lord more than anything.  Fain despises the dark one, he realy and truly is insane, SH can not Block Fains powers at all!!  So IMHO, Fain would Slap him down like a wet Noodle!!

 

This is just how I Feel, and I hope we see some sort of confrontation in the last Book.  :)

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The DO has put a part of himself into SH, making SH a pretty gosh darn powerful creature. As if a myrdraal was not bad enough in itself, we now have an enhanced myrdraal with some of the powers of a god.

 

In a face-to-face combat, Fain would have as much chance as a blueberry in a supernova.

 

A knife in the back while SH is disgtracted by putting the hurt on Rand, that's a different story...

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Personally, I would love to see Fain face off with SH.  Fain's powers have continued to grow.  He more at his disposal than the dagger.  He can affects from his touch, which is probably what he used against the Fades.  In the later books, he's also able to summon the deadly fog and cast illusions.  At this point, we really don't know what he is capable of doing.  

 

On the other hand, SH seems to be able to do things derived from his connection to the DO (channel TP?) and we've seen him cower some of the most powerful people in the series.  

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Can't Shaidar Haran channel? I know it's not specifically stated but when he comes for Graendel he makes that black ball of light and cuts her of from the source. I believe if Fain tried anything SH would just fling him through a wall.

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I don't think he can channel the One Power, but I do think he can make use of the True Power.

 

Fain's powers have grown ... but I don't think he's anything close to Shaidar Haran, in a straight up one-on-one.  Fain could probably kill SH with the dagger, if he got the drop on him, but if SH knows he's coming, Fain is screwed.

 

So, Maj might have been overstating it with his "blueberry in a supernova" ... maybe a rabid hyena in a nuclear fusion explosion.  ::)

 

By the way ... Fain did not summon the deadly fog in ACoS ch 36.  It was a "bubble of evil".  Fain just took advantage of the confusion.

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The other thing to consider is sheer the physicals. Even when you do / dont consider the Power aspect, SH is a Myrdraal, and a big one - about 7 feet or so i think, and aren't Myrdraal incredibly strong, to start with? Fain is always described as being a weedy little guy, although i concede that if he can nail a normal Myrdraal to a door that may show otherwise.

 

I dont like servants of the Dark in the slightest, but i would love to see SH obliterate Fain. A Myrdraal with a sense of humour would be a brilliant end for the nasty little man.

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The other thing to consider is sheer the physicals. Even when you do / dont consider the Power aspect, SH is a Myrdraal, and a big one - about 7 feet or so i think, and aren't Myrdraal incredibly strong, to start with? Fain is always described as being a weedy little guy, although i concede that if he can nail a normal Myrdraal to a door that may show otherwise.

 

I dont like servants of the Dark in the slightest, but i would love to see SH obliterate Fain. A Myrdraal with a sense of humour would be a brilliant end for the nasty little man.

 

Now, now,  Do not hate The Freinds of the Dark. They are people just like everyone else, they are just a tad more greedy. :)  While SH is most certianly the most powerful fade, we have no idea of all of fains new tricks, we do know that unless you are the Dragon Reborn, one nick of that dagger will wipe you off the map, and fain can cause pain to people with out that dagger.

 

It would certianly be a great scene to have them battle, but I think Mat will be the one to end Fain.

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You are correct of course, however you are speaking of people who follow the Great Lord and fear the Great Lord more than anything.  Fain despises the dark one, he realy and truly is insane, SH can not Block Fains powers at all!!  So IMHO, Fain would Slap him down like a wet Noodle!!

 

This is just how I Feel, and I hope we see some sort of confrontation in the last Book.  :)

 

Exactly what my point is.  There is a very interesting scene where Moridin is playing stones with himself, and talking about playing both sides.  He's mad, of course, but if he controlled the forsaken, then there it is..  How better to control the forsaken than to name yourself nabless

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By 'playing both sides', I wonder if Moridin is hoping to be something more than the DO. So he would need to maintain both Rand AND the chosen until TG, keep out of the way, see them destroy each other, and then unveil himself as the last surviving Chosen / powerful channeller etc...

 

I dont think it'll work but its' an idea.

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  I think by working both sides, Moridin/Ishy is just following the Great Lord of the Drak's orders, his standing order that as far as I know has never been resicnded, is "let the the lord of chaos rule". I do not see anything that he has done that would make The Great Lord mad.  Sammel was not following the Great Lords order, so taking him out would not make the Great Lord mad.

 

  I am not to sure Moridan realy cares about becoming the Last Chosen standing, he more than anyone understands what will happen if the great lord breaks free.  And if that happens, i do not see that it would matter who is left standing.

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By the way ... Fain did not summon the deadly fog in ACoS ch 36.  It was a "bubble of evil".  Fain just took advantage of the confusion.

 

Correct. A similar fog strikes the Rahad before that, in the same book or the one before, and Mat identifies it as a bubble of evil...only from hearsay, but it seems clear that while the bubbles can have many different forms, they fall into several catagories:  Flying Object Poltergeist, Image/Reflection Attacks, Butcher Fogs, Vomiting Insects (maybe), etc.

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Guest Dreadlord

i think shaidar haran is moridin in disguise, i have thought this for a while now

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