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Verin's lie?


Lunan
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i have seen it posted o a few sites that Verin is the only aei sadi that is known to have tell a lie and is not confirmed as part of the black ajah (ok i'm messing up spellings)

now i have read the series a couple of times and i have listened to it, however the series is HUGE and i have not noticed Verin's lie, so i'm asking here are these post ill informed or did she lie?

if so please post the quote for me and please post the novel and page

thanks

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if i remember correctly, it was in The Great Hunt when Rand, Ingtar, Perrin and Loial all go trampsing of after the horn of valere and the dagger that fain stole....Well, Verin appears one morning and they question why she was following them, and she tells them that Moiraine sent her.

 

Later on in the book however, when Moiraine is asked why she sent Verin after them, she looks at them funny and replies something to the affect of "I dont know what you're talking about- if Verin came after you, she did that on her own"

 

....that obviously means one of them is lying. Their verbiage was very specific, none of that normal way of Aes Sedai dancing around words.

 

 

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Wow, I need to pay more attention.

 

That's pretty wild, though. I'm fairly certain that Verin is quite good, though.. just.. good in a vicious, cut-throaty way. For a Brown, at least. But, lie..? How did she swing that...

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All Verin says is that Moiraine sent her, she then similes after. I don't believe she was lying, I think Moiraine sent her, just not there. Keep in mind that Verin did not say exactly where Moiraine sent her.

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Mmhmm. That would have been my guess, too. Those Aes Sedai and their truth being whatever they interpret. I gotta hand it to RJ, that was pretty clever. It's simple.. but it's clever in being simple. I'm too straightforward for that. Truth is truth to me.

 

Which I guess is how it is to other people, also, haha.

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I don't have it in front of me but I seem to remember the quote as being "Moraine sent me, She thought I might be of some Use." or something to that effect. I was suspicious of Verin from the first time I read TGH the first time. I don't know what she is up to or why. I like Verin in many ways then again I like cobras but I wouldn't let one run around my house. 

 

I did find it odd that Moraine warned Rand in Fires of Heaven to be as weary of Verin as he was of Alvarian. There has been some off comments that give me to believe Moraine can either fortell or dream. In EotW she makes comments about attempting Dreamwalking, and in TGH Anyaa(sp!) tells Egwene that she would recieve the training in dreaming that Moraine should be there to give her. These are the only 2 comments I have found thus far as again I am only 5 books into the sereis. But I do find it odd and Moraine dose seem to know things she Should not know. Example is with the dragon banner, why would she think Rands life would depend on having it with him when he went after the horn in TGH. Did she know that the heroes of the horn would only follow the dragon banner or was it something else. It's not been explained as far as I have seen yet.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

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The Great Hunt, Chapter 14 (8 pages in, in my book):

 

"Verin Sedai," Ingtar said sharply, then bowed to her from his saddle.

 

"Moirane Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She thought you might need me. ...."

 

Note she does not mention WHERE Moirane sent her, but she does say YOU might need me.

 

Then, at the end of the book, Chapter 49 (3 pages in, in my book):

 

Moiraine just appears back, Rand is talking to her about where she's been and what she's done, then, Rand says:

 

"What you could.  You sent Verin to shepherd me, but I'm no sheep, Moiraine.  You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you are not."

 

I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own.  You are of interest to a great many people, Rand.  Did Fain find you, or you him?" ... etc ...

 

Yes - Moiraine does seem to know many things.

 

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My personal issue with the 'Moiraine Sedai sent me (to find some pizza), Lord Ingtar' Is that RJ specified that the person hearing the words perception has an influence on the oaths strictures. His specific point was that an Aes Sedai might say a black cloth was white, but not if the person she was speaking to was blind and might take her for her word, so clearly its not an exact match. But in this situation, the clear degree that those hearing her would take it to mean that Moiraine sent her to aid Ingtar forbids such a flimsy circumvention.

 

Also related to this issue is the fact that when compelling Beldeine Verin quite clearly rationalizes a misrepresentation of the truth (the she had felt tired), which does suggest that she is bound by the first oath. So altogether i find this her most problematic mystery.

 

I did find it odd that Moraine warned Rand in Fires of Heaven to be as weary of Verin as he was of Alvarian.

 

Moiraine's statement represented the entirety of the Aes Sedai. Specifically she was saying not to trust any Aes Sedai, from Alviarin (a specific example of an Aes Sedai that she knew Rand did not trust) and Verin (a specific example of an Aes Sedai that she Rand did trust (to some degree)).

 

She was stating polar opposites, so if anything her comment suggests that she herself concidered Verin to be the most trustworthy of Aes Sedai.

 

There has been some off comments that give me to believe Moraine can either fortell or dream. In EotW she makes comments about attempting Dreamwalking, and in TGH Anyaa(sp!) tells Egwene that she would recieve the training in dreaming that Moraine should be there to give her.

 

Moiraine's comments in the Eye are that she does not have dreamwalking ability. the only dream connection she makes is the general influence of sleeping near a channeler. And i can't recall Anaiya saying that, but if she did it would be very interesting... do you have a quote?

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I think Moiraine's odd knowledge comes from a combination of factors, so of it may simply be that is as good as Thom at Des'Damar(sp).  I think she got information when she went to Someshta and lastly, unlike most Aes Sedai, she pays attention to the world and people around her.

As for her trusting Verin, she had to, Verin knew that Rand was the dragon

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I think... Moiraine is just awesome.. so she gets to know what she wants. But, seriously, I think Demandred has it right. She pays a good deal of attention when she moves about and she asks questions people don't always think and yadda yadda. Suffice it to say, she's what Aes Sedai should be.

 

Also, I've heard it stated somewhere that Verin could possibly be like.. the Creator's Chosen.. or some such. I thought that was a pretty interesting idea and could very well be true, to an extent. Because I think she's definitely good.. but she's a meddlesome, not exactly like every other Brown good.

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We have seen that the three oaths can be removed, in not necessariy with ease.  Could it be that Verin, rather than a darkfriend, is simply a very practical woman.  She pinched an oath rod, or maybe found one and never turned it in to the Tower, thereby giving her the ability to remove an oath when she finds it necessary.  Not everyone has to feel the same about the oaths as Siuan.  None of her POV scenes give any indication that she's a DF and usually, RJ's characters can lie to anyone but themselves about that.  The only thing Verin ever thinks as even remotely unsavory is a murder, one that reads like self defense, committed in her youth and that she, for some undisclosed reason, has to keep her identity hidden in Far Madding.  Both events could have happened in her youth before she went to the Tower.

 

 

Think about all the known DFs.  It's evident from their thoughts which side of the line they stepped to.  If RJ doesn't want you to know which side that is, they don't get any POV scenes.  I don't recall Ingtar having any (his loyalty was not openly brought to light untilt he end of TGH), but the Peddler in the Waste, Hadnan Kadere, comes out as soon as we get a peek into his dirty little mind.

 

That'll be two cents please.

 

 

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And i can't recall Anaiya saying that, but if she did it would be very interesting... do you have a quote?

 

I Don't have a paper copy of the books I have the audio sets. But the quote was in The Great Hunt, Where Egwene was on the docks before she boarded the River Queen on her way to Tarvalen, Her Pov has her worrying over her dreams of Rand and noticeing that the village she is in is small then relaizes it's the same size as Emonds Field. I know it's not much to go on but thats the best I can give as far as location. I need to get paper copys of the books I know hehe.

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

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Well, we will talk about it more on the River Queen. If you are a dreamer, I wil see you have the training Moriane should be here to. . . . You there!"

 

That one?

 

I don't think that it implied Moriane is a dreamer, on the previous page Anaiya says this:

 

"that's a possibility I'll wager noone has considered. You may be a Dreamer. It's a small chance, child, but. . . .We havent had one of those in-oh-four or five hundred years,
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A thought occurred to me, and I think that it might be a plausible explaination for the Verin lie.  An explaination I don't think I've heard before.

 

I think that Verin might have compelled Moraine.  Think about it, at the point that Moraine leaves the boys, she believes that the horn will most likely be taken to the blight, and that when it is recovered that it will return to Shienar, TV, or Illian.  Yet she goes to none of those places, instead she heads for the home of a pair of retired sisters in a remote section of Kandor.  Why?

 

The answer, because Verin sent her.

 

Who knew that the Horn would end up in Toman Head?  Verin predicted that.  Who is more likely to know the whereabouts of a pair of retired sisters who collect arcane bits of ancient lore?  Verin.  Who has a cobbled together weave that makes the subject do things that they might not ordinarily do and then forget what was done and said during the encounter?  Verin.  WHo has a record of doing such things to Aes Sedai?  Verin.  I think tha the Verin lie was just a setup for the later revelation that she had a form of compulsion that she uses from time to time.

 

Simply, if Verin used her weave on Moraine, then Moraine could have very easily have sent Verin to safegaurd Rand in her place and then forgotten all about it.

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As we saw when Verin used her little trick, it's quite difficult for her to do it. Her trick is nothing like actual Compulsion, where you can walk up to someone like Moggy did to Nynaeve and Elayne. Verin needs to have her subject relaxed. Considering that Moiraine does not fully trust Verin at this point, there is no way she would be anything near relaxed if she sensed even a whiff of Verin holding Saidar without reason when the two of them were alone together.

Look at her tea sitting with Cadsuane in WH. They are alone, Cadsuane seems far more comfortable than Moiraine would be around Verin, and yet Verin is considering killing Cadsuane, not using the her little trick, which would make a lot more sense.

 

 

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Well, we will talk about it more on the River Queen. If you are a dreamer, I wil see you have the training Moriane should be here to. . . . You there!"

 

That one?

 

I don't think that it implied Moriane is a dreamer, on the previous page Anaiya says this:

 

"that's a possibility I'll wager noone has considered. You may be a Dreamer. It's a small chance, child, but. . . .We havent had one of those in-oh-four or five hundred years,

 

 

Yeah that top one is the quote I was thinking of. But both statments seem to contradict each other. How can any Aes Sedai train a dreamer if they aren't one themselfs. It's like having a rough idea of how cars work then trying to tell someone how to build one, it dosen't work. If there hadn't been a dreamer in 500 years then any knowlage of it a Aes Sedai would have is second hand and unlike channeling they can't directly guide only tell them whats what and having never done it themselfs they can't explain beyond what might be in a book. I rather learn to cook from a person who has actually cooked than to try to learn from someone who has only ever read about it and never done it.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

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How can any Aes Sedai train a dreamer if they aren't one themselfs. It's like having a rough idea of how cars work then trying to tell someone how to build one, it dosen't work. If there hadn't been a dreamer in 500 years then any knowlage of it a Aes Sedai would have is second hand and unlike channeling they can't directly guide only tell them whats what and having never done it themselfs they can't explain beyond what might be in a book.

 

Moiraine helped Perrin out with the wolfdream even though we have no real indications of her "dreaming" ability.  Besides, the AS in question wouldn't be able to say that there hadn't been a dreamer in 500 years since Corianin if Moiraine was a dreamer.  It would be one of those pesky lies that the Three Oaths prohibit.  And we know for certain that neither Moiraine nor Anaiya are Black Ajah. 

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How can any Aes Sedai train a dreamer if they aren't one themselfs. It's like having a rough idea of how cars work then trying to tell someone how to build one, it dosen't work. If there hadn't been a dreamer in 500 years then any knowlage of it a Aes Sedai would have is second hand and unlike channeling they can't directly guide only tell them whats what and having never done it themselfs they can't explain beyond what might be in a book.

 

The answer is, they probably wouldn't do a great job, but any help is better than none.  Plus, there is the fact that many Aes Sedai regularly hint at a claim to knowledge they don't actually have, especially in front of potential novices.  I mean, its not like Anaiya is going to say to Egwene, "Well, even though Dreaming is related to the Power, we think, we don't actually know anything about it.  That whole 'wisdom of the Aes Sedai' thing is just a load.  But you still have to be strictly obedient as a novice, because we know best."

 

Fortunately, Egwene was able to get help from people who actually did know what they were doing.

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Well, as I recall Anaiya begins giving Egwene training, as she sees it, on the way, and then at the White Tower, which as far as I remember consists of her telling Egwene to write down her dreams.

 

I think the whole thing about giving her training in dreaming comes down to the Aes Sedai ego/superiority thing. Anaiya doesn't seem to know much about dreaming, but she presumes to try and "teach" Egwene about dreaming, atleast as far as she sees it. I would think that she presumed Moriane would do the same.

 

Darn! Beaten to it as I was typing, RAW thats basically what I was angling for.

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I think you guys pretty much have it. Moiraine is like... ninja.. at everything, though. Even if she doesn't know everything about it, I think we covered it here or in another thread that she really pays attention to what she sees, hears, reads.. all that.

 

So, I'm fairly certain that she could have given some decent help.. but it would have still been from someone that doesn't know from experience.

 

Also, I really don't think that Verin would have used compulsion on Moiraine. Or that Moiraine would have stood for it, or been taken by it anyway, had she tried. If anything, Moiraine might have just asked if Verin knew of any such people.. and if not, then, like we've been sayin'.. Moiraine pays attention.

 

I still think Verin is like.. one of the Creator's agents, out to do some good for the cause of the Light. But that's because there are so few people, aside from Rand, that seem to really want to just... save the world.. and not worry about their own personal gain. I mean, Rand still thinks he's gunna bite it at the Last Battle.

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About Anaiya, recall that she did feel she had some claim to teach Egwene. She was renowned as an authority on archaic things, and she gets cited several times when Egwene's dream about the Seanchan attack is being debated as someone who would be able to settle for sure wether Egwene's dreams were real.

 

About Verin, it seems to me that her actions fit that of a sister who is concerned about the negative impact Aes Sedai might have on the Dragon and Tarmon Gai'don. Half of her actions seem intended to either keep the Aes Sedai off balance, or to keep them from gaining a position of influence with Rand, and yet other half seem directed at binding Aes Sedai to aid Rand.

 

Concider the way she manipulates Demira into that disasterous confrontation with Rand, or how she warns Perrin specifically about Alanna--even her lie seems directed at cutting the ropes between the lads and Moiraine, an Aes Sedai who retains a position of direct authority and even gruging respect with them. Against that you have the way she compels certain Aes Sedai into following him absolutely.

 

These seemingly opposite actions are best exemplified to my mind by the scene with Cadsuane in Winter's Heart. Verin is about to poison her, yet stops and relaxes when she hears Cadsuane speak of assisting Rand. An Aes Sedai in a position of influence with Rand, and Verin is about to act to remove her--until she shows her intentions to assist him on his course.

 

All of these actions, to my mind, match a woman who is deeply aware of the flaws in Aes Sedai nature. The arrogance, the inherent need to try and dominate any situation. The almost instinctive attempt to manipulate everything, even when the sister has no personal stake in the matter. And i think that they show a woman who is aware of how disasterous it would be if the Aes Sedai came to be able to control Rand, or the organisation of the Light for Tarmon Gai'don... and she is acting to stop that.

 

Verin's end game, therefore, is to bring the Tower to fight alongside Rand on his terms without their personally issues providing a detrimental influence on the war with the shadow.

 

As to why she felt it so nessasary to do this--maybe she is just intelligent enough to percieve it herself, but my guess is she was first tipped off to the true danger of the issue by Corianin's notes. Who better than a dreamer to percieve the dangers of such a subtle rot.

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Moiraine brought Egwene to the Tower, apparently, that gives some sort of proprietary "sponsorship" rights and duties.

 

Moiraine, in conversation with Verin and Siuan, said "I wish one of us could go with him/them, but . . ." this is while explaining why she does not herself go.

 

That's the quote Verin twisted. Simple as that- she's fulfilling Moiraine's wishes by including herself in that "we."

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Firstly, could you quote that? I don't recall it, and it'd be interesting to look at the precise words.

 

But beyond that i dont think so. The way Verin said it, and the way RJ had Moiraine specifically deny it hints to me of something other than a manipulated truth.

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As we saw when Verin used her little trick, it's quite difficult for her to do it. Her trick is nothing like actual Compulsion, where you can walk up to someone like Moggy did to Nynaeve and Elayne. Verin needs to have her subject relaxed. Considering that Moiraine does not fully trust Verin at this point, there is no way she would be anything near relaxed if she sensed even a whiff of Verin holding Saidar without reason when the two of them were alone together.

 

Yet somehow she manages to get every other captured sister relaxed enough  to work her trick on?  You think that a captured Red, being questioned alone by a sister sworn to a man who could channel would be more relaxed?  A captured Black?

 

I don't think that this is far fetched at all.  In fact in makes Moraine's sudden and unexpected disapearance from the group easier to understand, and it explains how she ended up on Toman head, when she had previously seemed disinclined to go there.  Given the fact that Verin's trick also seems to loosen the toungue of its subject, I think it would have been very likely that Moraine would have expressed a worry about there needing to be a sister with Rand, and then Verin using that as a mandate from Moraine.  When asked about it later, Moraine simply had forgotten.

 

Considering that this "lie" has been discussed since book two came out, and since RJ specifically denied that this was a mistake, I have to believe that the lie was an intentional plot device on the part of RJ.  Given what RJ had revealed to us about Verin's trick later on, I think that the lie was supposed to be an indicator, early on, that Verin had some trick up her sleeve.

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