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Whitecloak women?


Sila Darklover
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Have I overlooked something in the books saying that only men are allowed to be Children of the Light, or is it just implied?  Or might there be Whitecloak women that we haven't happened to meet?  Just wondering.

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I think it is like warders in that women can be warders, it just doesn't happen. Ignore the rare occasion of Birgitte. As far as I know, she is the only female warder.

 

Also it seems to me that outside of the Aiel, women are not expected to be warriors.

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Yeah besides Elyanes Body guards I can't remeber any women warriors on this side of the Spine. Oh and in seanchan i don't think that there are women foot soldiers. Just Sul'damane and Sailors.

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saldea....and possibly ebou dar, those women are dangerous. i am sure there are more, they just arent andoran.

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There are women Seanchan soldiers. Mat meets one in the incident whene tree Seachan soldier tries to visit the cicus without paying.

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Don't you think it's kind of odd that the women are so fierce in Saldea yet althroughout the borderlands they have that extreme form of chivalry.

Just a thought, could women not whitecloaks because the Aes Sedai of this age.  I mean every man in the whole world isn't going to go mad but yet women have large amount of power based on this fact.  With the warder bond I have a feeling Birgitte will be the last, especially with all the mirroring affects.  My 2 cents

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Robert bases many of the cultures in randland off cultures that have existed.  The white cloaks are very much an early American witch burning christen group.  Being so very against the white tower I am sure they do everything they can to keep the woman suppressed and out of power.  As so many woman have power, it makes it easy for them gain recruits.

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The weird thing is, Bornhold had a son, so he must have had a wife somewhere, but there are no wives mentioned. Niall doesn't have one. I wonder if they expect their high-ups no forsake worldly things like families.

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Thats the thing that gets me most about the Whitecloaks is that they claim this Holier than thou persona yet they are in my opinion one of the most debase factions in all of Randland. They are nothing like what they are supposed to be. Even Pedron Nial was not a good person. Even he wanted to take advantage of Morgase if I remeber correctly he just never did.or did he? It been awhile since i read LoC. Galad is probably the only white Cloak that accually follows the original precepts behind the white cloak orgaization.

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Well his PoV went something along the lines of 'If I were 20 years younger and she 20 older.... NO'

 

Pervy enough but he was really just noticing her beauty more than anything. Oddly Morgase was originally described as bing a more beautiful/matured beauty version of Elayne ('The beauty of Elayne in full bloom') or some such. Yet later, in PoD she isn't really described as being that good looking, granted it's Perrin's PoV yet even he noticed Alliandre later on...True she was dirty but even after getting cleaned up she's still not really noticed....Sorry I just thought that was a bit odd.

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Don't you think it's kind of odd that the women are so fierce in Saldea yet althroughout the borderlands they have that extreme form of chivalry.

Just a thought, could women not whitecloaks because the Aes Sedai of this age.  I mean every man in the whole world isn't going to go mad but yet women have large amount of power based on this fact.  With the warder bond I have a feeling Birgitte will be the last, especially with all the mirroring affects.  My 2 cents

 

what? no lesbians in Randland? what about pillow buddies and the like? ;) That would be like an aes sedai and female warder, say if she had no ability to use the one power but could fihgt. It is a bond. Which is why I find it odd that there are so few female warders. But I guess it is the common belief [in our culture] about female soldiers that expels most of them from being warders. No woman could ever be that good... :-\

And I do believe that the White Cloaks are modelled after earlier generations, even some today, of Christians that persecute those of differences. And there 'holier than thou' perception is perfect, even with their twists, in the long run then.

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Personally I would have said that the Whitecloaks were mostly based on the Crusaders. Religious warriors convinced they were doing the will of God and all that stuff. They too were known to dabble in torture and forced confessions too...

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Personally I would have said that the Whitecloaks were mostly based on the Crusaders. Religious warriors convinced they were doing the will of God and all that stuff. They too were known to dabble in torture and forced confessions too...

 

mhmm, exactly my opinion. The first time I read about them, I thought it blatantly obvious.

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The weird thing is, Bornhold had a son, so he must have had a wife somewhere, but there are no wives mentioned. Niall doesn't have one. I wonder if they expect their high-ups no forsake worldly things like families.

 

Niall was a widower, according to the TFoH prologue.  And then, yes, there are the Bornhalds.  Presumably the women involved just weren't in the Order.  Some, lie Asunawa, probably consider themselves above that stuff (at least I hope so) but not all. 

 

I guess it's just implicit that Whitecloaks in general don't trust women, so wouldn't allow them in.  Women who believe in their creed (Ascetism in the name of the Light, hate for Aes Sedai, suspecting everyone as Darkfriends) would, I guess, just be supporters, not active fighters. 

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Guest silver89

I also agree that the Whitecloaks resemble the Crusaders.

 

Galad is probably the only white Cloak that accually follows the original precepts behind the white cloak orgaization.

 

According to the BWB the Whitecloaks was orignally founded.."as a priesthood dedicated to proselytizing against Darkfriends." So even Galad isn't following the original precepts...but I'm nit-picking as the saying goes. :)

 

 

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I remember hearing someplace that RJ modeled the Whiteclocks on the Tuetonic Knights and/or the Templers.  A semi-religious order of warriors sworn to protect (advance the true faith).  As Randland is loosely based on a Middle Ages Europe its not surprising that there are no women Whiteclocks.  The senior bornhold is evidence that at least some of the officers were married. The Seanchen general that Perrin makes a deal with is a woman--so the Seanchen like the Ail seem to accept women in military roles. 

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  • 1 month later...

I think Geofram Bornhald was an example of a Whitecloak who probably wasn't really a bad guy, just a little misguided, in that he bought into Whitecloak propaganda enough to consider it a viable career option.  For instance, he thought Perrin should be hung, but because he was a Darkfriend who killed two Whitecloaks.  Egwene he would have let go, once she renounced her Darkfriend ways and walked in the Light again.  Now, this sounds silly, as we know that Egwene and Perrin were certainly not Darkfriends, but to a Whitecloak Lord Captain, I think it says a lot that he would even let Egwene, a known Darkfriend to his mind, go.  I think most Whitecloaks probably would have killed them both where they stood and not even bothered to take them to trial in Amador.

 

Dain, on the other hand, was a complete dick.  Pedron Niall I don't think was too bad either...at the very least, as a leader and general, he was top notch (even Lan has respect for his ability in this regard).  Remember, Fain did get to him, enough to make him do some pretty bad decisions, but I still think overall Niall wasn't so bad.  The fact that he treated Morgase with a modicum of respect knowing she trained at the White Tower is still more than I think you could expect from most Whitecloaks.

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Well his PoV went something along the lines of 'If I were 20 years younger and she 20 older.... NO'

 

Pervy enough but he was really just noticing her beauty more than anything. Oddly Morgase was originally described as bing a more beautiful/matured beauty version of Elayne ('The beauty of Elayne in full bloom') or some such. Yet later, in PoD she isn't really described as being that good looking, granted it's Perrin's PoV yet even he noticed Alliandre later on...True she was dirty but even after getting cleaned up she's still not really noticed....Sorry I just thought that was a bit odd.

I'm going to assume that by "pervy" you mean you mean he was considering raping or otherwise pressuring her into sex rather than meaning sexual desire itself is perverted. My impression of the scene between Morgase and Niall was that he was attracted to her but not only in a physical way. I thought they'd been spending evenings together, having dinner, playing stones, and having long discussions on philosophy and politics. Morgase was being charming since she wanted to influence Niall and she's a beautiful woman, even if she's not Perrin's type. Maybe it's just because I tend towards the romantic, but I thought his "if I were 20 years younger" bit meant he was starting to be attracted to her in "potential next Mrs. Niall" sort of way, rejecting the idea because of the age difference--or just because he felt he was too old to remarry--and her Tower training.

 

Regarding Perrin not noticing that Morgase is hot, it doesn't mean she's not attractive, just that she's not his type. The "beauty of Elaine in full bloom" bit was in one of Rand's PoVs and Elaine and her look-alike mother are his type so he notices she's hot. Nobody turns on everybody although, hopefully, everybody turns on somebody.  :)

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I didn't think Niall was being pervy, he was just being a natural man, noticing beauty. I'm always disturbed by people assuming that admiring beauty = perverted thoughts. The fact that he considered their ages may imply some kind of possible emotional attraction, like Orange said. A man just looking to get his freak on wouldn't be worried about that.

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I didn't think Niall was being pervy, he was just being a natural man, noticing beauty. I'm always disturbed by people assuming that admiring beauty = perverted thoughts. The fact that he considered their ages may imply some kind of possible emotional attraction, like Orange said. A man just looking to get his freak on wouldn't be worried about that.

 

Is anyone from Britain here? Anyone ever watched Bottom, with Rik Mayall and Ade Edmonson? That's pervy. I dont think he was meaning considering rape or anything, i think pervy has different connotations in different parts of the world. For me it just means ... perving. Having a good look, perhaps imagining stuff but nothing sinister. Quite often (for good or bad) people consider having thoughts of someone where the age difference is more than, say, 15 years (generally when you're the older) to be 'pervy'.

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The very name of the orginization seems to imply that women are included and do play some role as they are called "The CHILDREN of the Light" as opposed to "The SONS of the Light."  My guess would be that women can be members but are restricted from holding governing positions or taking part in the army.  In a world where most cultures are rather egalitarian leave in to the Whitecloaks to be the one sexist society (along with the Aes Sadei of course).

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My impression is that women are second-class citizens in the eyes of the whitecloaks and/or Amadician culture. There was a quote somewhere...where Byar or Bornhold or someone quotes some cathesism about the sins of the father lasting for five generations but the sins of the mother for ten. Im sure that the Children consider women a good thing as long as they walk in the light...and that means approved female roles: servents, wives. No soldiering or dealing in herbs. It is odd though, as women have a more important role in almost all the other randland cultures, from reverence in Two Rivers and the Borderlands, to equality in Saldea and Seandar, to more-than-equality in Far Madding and Altara, and they can hold positions of power almost everywhere. Maybe the clue has something to do with the taint, perhaps? According to whitecloak philosophy, channeling is the work of the Dark One. Everyone can see that false (and real) dragons are mad and destructive, but it is not as clear with the Tar Valon Witches, as they are not overtly evil and have the sympathy of women and even some men in many countries. The entire world seems aligned against the children sometimes (Whitecloak War, anyone?). Maybe it is easier to look down on women more for them if they are looked upon higher in the rest of the world.

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I think it is what happens when you have two factions in a world, and both want to be 'king'. The Whitecloaks are what you would class as your religious party. They believe that they are the best power, and exert their authority and power wherever possible. Their biggest challenge / enemies? The Aes Sedai, whom they deem to be evil, bad and wrong. All AS are women, and until Rand came along with the Asha'man, no man could be AS. Perhaps it is this that causes them to see all women as a potential threat (potentially they could channel), and thus suppress them wherever possible. They do use women however, Carridin uses 'Lady Seaine' the fox-faced assassin / spy that tried to kill Mat when he was taken by the dagger on his journey with Rand, for his darkfriend purposes.

 

with reference to niall and morgase... my chronology is not great but i think it was niall who died? Was stabbed by his spy-master? His successor raped Morgase.

 

 

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