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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
dlan4327

Without meaning to be insensitive - in regards to AMOL

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I know there's a alternative thread regarding what will happen now in terms of AMOL & TOR (Who Should Finish MOTL?) however this is more to do with the particular writers that were discussed in that other thread. In particular a certain Mr Goodkind. Strangely I'd seen the Tribute to Robert Jordan several times but I only just realised today that RJ had passed away, my he rest in peace. I've been noticing today a generally good humored light heated bashing of anyone who suggests that Goodkind should have a stab at finishing AMOL. Now I've been on these boards long enough to know that RJ and in turn most of you loyal fans care little for Mr Goodkind although I wouldn't say you really hate him. I've heard the infamous quote "I'm aware of Mr Goodkind", don't worry here comes the elusive point to my post, and I really would love to know: Exactly what was the deal between RJ & Goodkind? The way people speak on this board makes it seem like Goodkind was RJ's arch nemesis. I saw a quote that said "In an ideal world Goodkind would burst into flames if he came within one mile of this manuscript" yikes! Am I missing something? Did Goodkind do something or say something truly awful? If somebody could clear this up that would be awesome because to me this is like the last unsolved mystery... well outside of the books at any rate. Cheers.  ;D     

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Guest silver89

Not entirely sure...but I believe that Goodkind was quoted saying that he had never before heard of the WoT series. Which imo has to be a blatant lie. Considering that it has set a new standard in writing that all fantasy series (including his own) is going to be compared to.

 

....as a side note I enjoyed his first couple of books in the Sword of Truth series but it became a chore to read the rest and so I stopped and moved on. :)

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I happen to like Goodkind's books, although not nearly as much as I LOVE RJ's WOT. However, many WOT fans "hate" or "despise" Goodkind because his Sword of Truth books have waaaay too many similarities to the some of the plotlines and characters over here in RJ's Wheel of Time series.

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Oddly, it never occurred to me that Goodkind might have plagiarized the Wheel of Time for some of his plot points and items.  I just hated how Richard Rahl turned from a mostly reasonable, somewhat clever person into the most incredibly self-righteous demagogue ever.

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You see, It did occur to me that Goodkind plagarised. I was still able to read it because... well, if your gonna plagarise, plagarise from a master. It was pathetic, but it was readable. Then he got past plagarising (unless you count the crap that he stole from Ayn Rand) and all that was left was the self-rightous demgagogue that Robert mentioned. Seriously. You can count on three things in Goodkinds books.

 

1. 70 pages of rehash. Literal 'oh, and that time i did that, that was cool.'

 

2. Richard gets seperated from Kahlen, but later they get back together and its 'awesome'.

 

3. Richard has an idea that older people scoff. He preaches it at great length, and they are scornful... except, oh, wait. Dude... he was totally righjt. Boy are their faces red... which they go on to admit. At length. Every single god damned book.

 

If it weren't so obvious that Goodkind thinks of himself as Richard (btw its made obvious by the dude ponytail... what the hell?) and thus pathetic, i would genuinely hate the guy for what he did to fiction. As it is i just feel sorry for the man.

 

 

But... you ask this issue between RJ and Goodkind.

 

RJ did not regaurd Goodkind as his arch nemisis, instead he seemed from what i saw to disdain the man. The source of it was the suggestion of plagarism, which pretty much is a fact--oh, im biased, but there are websites out there that go into the whole issue, and list like (600? its been a very long time since i checked) similarities. For the purpose of amusement, here are a few of the obvious ones.

 

1. rada'han = a'dam

2. Sisters of the Light = Aes Sedai (in manner and action, as well as organisation).

3. Sisters of the Dark = Black Ajah (again in action, mythology and reaction).

4. Wizards Webs = Weaves (oh, but the Wizards Webs have six elements including ice. ICE! Totally different).

5. Kahlan = Moiraine... in terms of powerful woman come to remote destrict to sweep up soon to be significant farmer.

6. Seanchan = Imperial Order

7. Aiel = D'hara (umm... maidens anyone?)

 

Don't get me started on themes and events.

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Come on!    Get Real!

 

The WoT and Sword of Truth Series are completely different!

 

If you keep on spouting this nonsense - soon you will be telling me that:

 

WoT  -  Balefire, which erases a persons ACTIONS into the past.

 

and

 

SoT  -  Chainfire, which erases the MEMORY of a persons actions into the past.

 

Are similar concepts.      That is just SO - NOT TRUE!    ;D

 

 

 

And I think that Goodkind has even said that he’s never even read WoT!        :o

 

 

 

Regardless of THAT Fallacy, I have enjoyed reading SoT.    But then I AM suffering severe WoT and aSoIaF withdraw seizures and have to have something to appease my severe reading habit.      If nothing else, it is fun to see things – MANY things and laugh and say “I know where he got THAT Idea.”

 

Unlike WoT and aSoIaF though, a single read of SoT is plenty.

 

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now i was aware of the wheel of time before the sword of truth. and there are a number of similarities, but that can be said to be true for the majority of fantasy vs fantasy. its like saying there are similarities to tolkien DUH!

 

now on the defending side of the issue, it is said(with quite some truth) that after wheel of time 6 that the story goes no where for all the remaining books, and there is alot of truth in that statement. and mr goodkind's books also have a similar SLOW down.

i really can't see where the hatred directed at the sword of truth books comes from, it makes little sensse to me

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now i was aware of the wheel of time before the sword of truth. and there are a number of similarities, but that can be said to be true for the majority of fantasy vs fantasy. its like saying there are similarities to tolkien DUH!

 

now on the defending side of the issue, it is said(with quite some truth) that after wheel of time 6 that the story goes no where for all the remaining books, and there is alot of truth in that statement. and mr goodkind's books also have a similar SLOW down.

i really can't see where the hatred directed at the sword of truth books comes from, it makes little sensse to me

 

If I left the impression that I hate the SoT series then I would like to assure you that I do not.  I do enjoy reading each SoT book ONCE.    Unlike WoT, aSoFaI and one other that I have read too many times to count.  Each time I read these three it is like visiting an old friend.

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You don't see where the hatred of the SoT books comes from? Let me break it down for you.

 

Wizard's First Rule was a great fantasy book. The series is fantasy, so says everyone. A bit into the writing, however, Goodkind decided to start saying his series is not in the fantasy genre. It has swords, dragons, and magic... but no longer does Goodkind define it as fantasy. The minute his books started selling and he started getting a bit of attention he decided to say it's his own genre instead. Unfortunately, whether you use your fantasy writing as a soapbox or not, it's still fantasy.

 

Though WFR was great the series has slid steadily downhill. This is not to say that, like WoT, the series only seems slow because of the massive number of concurrent plotlines and main characters. No. SoT doesn't have many plot lines or main characters. SoT slows down entirely because each book contains increasingly more preaching instead of plot motion.

 

In the latest SoT release, Phantom, the plotline literally progresses from "Hey, someone left a book for me" to "I found the book" to conclude at "Now I'm in a cage. Probably should have read that book." Comparing that to The Wheel of Time is insulting. The only reason Goodkind even introduces new lands and peoples is as a convenient excuse to preach about something said people are doing wrong in said land for a book, then pretty much ignore their existance for the remainder of the series.

 

Oh... and if you want to see how much Goodkind and his fans stick to what he's preaching in his damn books join his message board and post a new topic about preferring Jordan, critisizing something, asking why the books became so preachy, etc. 10 to 1 the thread will be closed very, very shortly.

 

You want to know the reason it'd be better for the MoL manuscript to burst into flame than for Goodkind to come near it?

 

Robert Jordan wrote an amazing story, with great characters, and a massively detailed world. His story telling and writing skills raised the bar for fantasy and epic writing in general far above where it had been.

 

Goodkind killed what could have been a great fantasy series by turning it into one long drawn out sermon. He writes only to preach at others, and seems to think of himself as the pinnacle of reasoning and ethics. (And if you don't agree with him you MUST be an idiot for not seeing the truth of just how right about everything he is.)  ::)

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One of the last of RJ's blogs:

I seem to feeling rather viperish today. I also hear that a certain writer, on hearing that I had heart problems, announced that his cardiologist, on holding his (the writer’s) heart in his hands said that he could have been holding the heart of a sixteen year-old or some such. My cardiologist told me much the same thing, but I made him give it back. Ahem. A question occurs. What was wrong that anyone had their filthy fingers palping his actual heat. All my heart examinations have been via catheritazation or electrocardiogram or echocardiogram or the like. Only if they saw cause would anyone be sticking fingers into my chest must less fingering my heart. Some discrepancy there, eh?

 

On, well. Down, Simba! Down, Big Boy. That’s what Harriet says when I get like this. Lets get on to something a little more pleasant.

 

Haven't had the pleasure of reading Goodkind. Opinions of people I generally agree with on things literary on the Westeros boards tend to be WFR reads like bad fan-fiction, then it's all downhill from there.

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I've read a few of the SoT books and my first impression ws that RJ was not the only one that TK was borrowing from - as soon as I saw a "Mord-Sith" I almost fell out of my chair, and that was before episode one was even an idea. Of course, Lucas borrowed alot from Edgar Rice Burroughs, etc., but TK was never the most original writer, and has no business tinkering around with anything WoT related.

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First off, you guys are all hilarious. Most fantasy authors that have ever written have the same basic plotlines.  There is a character from a small village that gets dragged into a big fight that he wants nothing to do with, but ends up being the hero. Seriously, think about it.  Do you really think Robert Jordan was the first one to ever come up with that plotline? Do you think he was the first one to use magic and good and bad wizards? I like his books and I like Goodkind's books, but I get so sick of people that think because a plotline is a little similar there is all this plagiarizing going on.  Plus, RJ did the same thing with putting a bunch of filler in his books. He said himself that it was only supposed to be five books, but he got popular and wanted to stretch it out.  Why do you think he wrote the New Spring novel? That novel had nothing to do with the series except that he wanted to stretch it out and milk it.  I don't blame him because almost any author would do the same thing.  I know you guys are going to hate me and rip this post apart, but it's the truth and you know it.

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RJ and other writers with a bit of maturity acknowledge the influence others have on their writing.

 

That is correct. However, Gregory_AF, what bothers many fans of RJ's WOT is the apparently all to close similarities of more than a few plotlines of the Sword of Truth series to what we have here in the Wheel of Time series. As a fan of the Sword of Truth, I do see and recognise the many close similarities. However, the vast majority of WOT fans, like myself, appreciate and adore RJ's writings a whole heckuva lot more than we do with TG's books.

 

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It is true that most mainstream fantasy stories share some basic similarities.  I'm not sure I buy the Kahlan=Moiraine as plagiarism for example ... but the whole Rada'han=A'dam thing, and the Sisters of Light=Aes Sedai thing ... those are too specifically close to fall under the "general fantasy similarity" shield.

 

Alleged plagiarism aside, however, the later books (and the trend starts right after WFR) are just ... poorly written.

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I have to agree with RAW here, as the topic is speculation towards who would be worthy of writing AMoL.  IMO, Goodkind is just nowhere near the calibre of writer it will take to pull this off well.

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Gregory,

 

Jordan ended up writing more than he had first intended because it took more than he'd expected to write the story. He wasn't simply trying to milk things. New spring was written as part of a collection of short stories from various fantasy authors called "Legends". Goodkind's Debt of Bones was made for the same collection.

 

I've read both series and I don't even care to talk about plagarism. Some things stick out to me, yes, but I let that slide. Regardless, Goodkind is simply not on Jordan's level. Jordan is a master story teller, a true bard. Goodkind is a wannna be preacher who happens to write.

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i found myself putting the third goodkind book down mid sentence and never picking it up again. i dont even remember its name. the same cannot be said of the wheel of time. i may have put the book down for a few hours but i always had to pick it up and finish it. even after three entire read throughs. three or four days is the max i go from start to finish. it has been nearly three years since i started the third TG book though and i have yet to finish it. i guess that says something... :-\

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Ok Guys, first of all it is my first post here. But as James said, I am feeling viperish. Not just today.....from the minuite I heard of RJ's passing.

 

IT IS JUST SO DAMN UNFAIR. TO RIP OFF A WRITER WHEN HE IS ABOUT TO ACHIEVE HIS HIGHEST PINNACLE.

 

So many worthless people is living 80/85 years.....why haven't fate decided at least ten more years for the greatest story teller ever. RJ deserved to finish and enjoy the WOT series and the aftermath of its success, cause I am sure AMOL would have been spectacular if RJ could finish it in good health.

 

WOT is the only Fantasy series I liked a lot. I read SOT and some other too. But not any of them came anywhere near WOT. Now,it may be just me, but WOT has surpassed LOR long ago. There is life out there in WOT. A beating heart in everybook, that tends to sooth me every time I seek peace and adventure.

 

As for TG, well, I like Ayn Rand a lot, and he has ripped her almost in his everybook.

 

Goodkind plays the oldest tricks in the book as a guideline for his books.

 

1. Kidnaping, separating the precious girl(Kahlan).....in almost every book.Downright irritating.

2. Yeah, there isn't any life or joy in the series, only depression and paranoid.

 

There is a whole lot of things that could be said, not to mention the vivid rape and sex scene.

 

Still, I am going to finish his series...cause I want to see how it ends.

 

I don't dislike TG. But there is some one I dislike, which you guys aren't going to like at all. Its GRRM. I just hate reading history that was converted to Fantasy.....it is worst than any ripp off. Now GRRM is a talented writer...but thats all he has. Tallent doesn't makes great fantasy.

 

1. His plot vaguely familiar with certain aspect of earths History.Like when Chengis khan attacked Baghdad, British and Middles east conflict history, Gerusalem things and all it History.

 

2.I don't know many things about RJ. I know he appreciated GRRM. But that may be because he saw there is talent in GRRM.

But I know this that RJ would have never considered disgracing women the way GRRM do. "just rape her and she is yours".

 

"I will let all of their soldier ......you. I will even let all their horses....you". This is one of the line a brother was saying to his sister.

 

If I need history lesson, I will read Rise and fall of the Roman, War and peace" etc.

 

As for who should finish AMOL....it is got to be Harriet and Wilson....the name should be Robert Jordan.

 

If no one does write AMOL....I will have to write one for myself. May be I could pursue my sisters to read it as well. ;D

 

Well, sorry for the long post....but as I said I am feeling really viperish and It was a cruelest thing that happened to WOT (fan's and the Writter).

 

In short, GRRM shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the AMOL manuscript as Goodkind.

 

Goodkind may turn it into a preaching book and GRRM into a History book.

 

Thank you all....feel free to bomberd me as much as u can. I feel I have been beaten...smoothered by RJ's passing.

 

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You can easily tell the similarities between RJ's writing and TG.  However, RJ's books seem like poetry compared to TG's.  You just want to re-read RJ's books over and over again. 

I can see why people would get upset over TG b/c it makes you wonder how can his series have so many of the same things (just different names) as RJ's books?  But, it's like some people have said, fantasy does have a certain path that most authors follow.  I myself enjoy reading TG's books.  They are entertaining and far above some of the other authors out there. 

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Did Goodkind do something or say something truly awful?

 

Yes.  He wrote several books after Wizard's First Rule.

 

Sorry ... couldn't resist.  ;D

 

QTF!

 

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