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Despair

How come nobody gets dead in WoT?

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I agree that, since before the Cleansing, there has been improvement.  Why?  Cadsuane, among others, is acting.  Cadsuane has her own agenda.  More powerful, in my opinion, is the effect of Min and Elayne and Aviendha.

 

But its not like he's not showing any signs of dictatorial behavior any more.  Re-read that scene in in Tear and in the Stone in KoD ch 21.  He made statements like this one:

 

"I'm fighting a war.  The fewer people who obey, the more chance I'll lose, and if I lose, everybody loses.  If I could make everyone obey, I would."

 

KoD, ch 21

 

That is a VERY dangerous sentiment in someone who is, with the Power, entirely capable of Compelling large numbers of people.

 

He was openly rude and dismissive to his own allies.  Alanna and the others got him exactly what he asked for, and because the opposition had the gall to ask anything of him in return, he was furious.

 

But he was calmed down.  By Cadsuane, acting.  Cadsuane's actions even prompted lucid, calming advice from Lews Therin.

 

If Rand were left unchecked, then he might progress to the point where his victory would be bitter indeed.  But he is not being left unchecked, because of the foresight of people like Cadsuane and Sorilea, and the love of his women.

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But he was calmed down.  By Cadsuane, acting.  Cadsuane's actions even prompted lucid, calming advice from Lews Therin.

 

If Rand were left unchecked, then he might progress to the point where his victory would be bitter indeed.  But he is not being left unchecked, because of the foresight of people like Cadsuane and Sorilea, and the love of his women.

I can agree with that, and I also believe that if and when Moiraine gets rescued, and Rand gets to see that, then I feel like one big load of the personal guilt that he blames himself for shall be lifted off of his heart and mind.

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I know none of the main characters have died, but there have been a lot of secondary characters that I liked that died.  I don't have any of the books in front of me, so I know I am really going to mess up the spellings:

 

Tylin

Anaya

Vandene

Adeleas

several of the Kin

Master Fel

 

I am sure there are others that I can't think of.  I just remember toward the end of Elyane's section in KOD, I was ready to murder Elyane because I felt she got so many chars killed off by not being careful. 

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Why has everyone got it in for Lan?! Leave the guy alone. If Nyn or Lan die, I will tear up the book...and sit and cry. Let's not complain about the characters we love NOT dying...enjoy it while it lasts.

 

except Elayne...I would not mind if she drops dead.

 

 

I agree that Rand's emotional dam will probably break if Moirane comes back and he sees her alive.

 

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Guest cwestervelt

I came across a quote last night in The Eye of the World that basically sums this up.  They are entering the Ways and everyone is feeling a little overwhelmed with dread and hopelessness.  Moiraine, trying to lift peoples spirits, mentions that she does not believe Thom is dead.  Her statements imply that, because Thom is part of the over all weaving centered on Rand, Mat and Perrin, the Pattern won't let him die.  The same can be said of all of the Emond's fielders.  The Pattern won't let them die until their rolls are completed.

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Instead of someone close to Rand dieing to make him learn to cry again, I think it will be the return of Moiraine. Hers was one of if not THE first death that he blamed himself for and her return will not only prove that what min sees always come true, but it will shake Rand to the core. For the first time, the mental list of all the women whose deaths he blames himself for will actually lose a member. I wonder how that will affect him?

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Wow.  Great responses.

 

All I was saying is it would be nice to have a somewhat (10%) sense of realism.  I got stabbed one time in my life and the medic was standing right next to me.  I had a full on hemorrhage and it wasn't even near a vital organ.  When you puncture the body deeply, it hurts, and it sucks.

 

Ok, it is fiction and we need our characters to live.  I just wish they would just stop sitting down after a battle, pulling 3 arrows out, telling Faile to bugger off, and poulticing a deep wound.  Perrin should be dead 5x over. Mat at least once. And Rand is just plain Superman.

 

 

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Here's what I think. A.) For the Dictator thing, he's not becoming a merciless dictator at all. For him, the rest of his life is a mad dash to death. His only goal now is to save the world with that death. And he's right about people not obeying him, anyone that disobeyes is putting the world at risk. B.) as for making Rand cry, I think Mat's gonna bring Moraine to him, and she's going to calmly tell him that there was nothing he could of done, and that he should let it go.

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Sorry to be a spoil, but how is killing off characters an indication of realism? Why is it that if you have no further use of a character you HAVE to KILL her/him off? Why can't you have the character in question fade away from the story? In our reality, not all characters die. *boring*, I hear some--maybe most--say. Basically, if there's no large amount of deaths in a story, it becomes hard to stomach. It's only fiction, yet I can't help but wonder why death excites and fascinate men so much

 

I love this. Can I answer this in a 3 parts?

 

1)  Yes, always blame it on men.  That seems to work.  You could be a main character! LOL

 

2)  I didnt mean killing off main characters. I meant why don't the Forsaken, who Rand takes 800 pages to kill, stay dead.  RJ keeps breathing new life into them.  Moridin, Cindane, etc....  I love the main characters, but I would love to see Nynaeve fight it out with Moghedien and they both burn up.

 

3)  As for realism, of course we suspend beliefs because it is fantasy. Problem is, if RJ is going to tell us the color, blend, and neckline of a dress, he should obey some laws of nature.  An example is in Fires of Heaven, Chapter "The Craft of Kin Tovere".  The tower they built was 20 spans high.  So it is about 80-90 feet tall.  It gets blasted and falls with Rand, Avi, and Egwene on top.  They are all fine within a couple of hours.  Try jumping off the top of a 7 story building, then tell me about realism.  Just one example.

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Robert Jordan has an uncanny ability to make us bond with the characters in his books.  Some of the deaths (Ingtar?) seemed fitting.  Other characters' (Mat's companion Nalesean) deaths have bothered me and felt unnecessary.  I see many characters dying in the final book, but big name deaths will be limited.  Some of my thoughts, which could be completely wrong:

 

 

Live

Rand - I believe Lews Therin will die at TG and Rand will live the remainder of his mortal life without the constant companion in his head.

Mat & Tuon, Perrin & Faile, Nynaeve, and Egwene (and Gawyn?) will live.

Elayne, Min, Aviendha - Min may die, possibly saving Rand from not just death, but also preserving his sanity/humanity.  She could possibly be a catalyst toward Rand recovering if she is hurt/killed.  I think Elayne and Aviendha will certainly live, but Min may also pull through.

Logain - I believe he will lead the Black Tower after Rand is freed of Lews Therin.

Loial - Who else wrote the story we are reading?

 

 

Die

Taim - dead

Elyas - dead

Remaining 4 great captains - I think some of these may very well die.  Bashere seems a likely candidate.

Birgette - I see her either dying or returning to her old role as a hero of the horn.

Cadsuane - She is alive to ensure that Rand is able to fight the last battle, why would she live beyond that?  Perhaps she will simply go into retirement once again but I see her dying after an impressive display of power/courage saving Rand or someone close to him.

Masema – Will he die fighting the good guys, or will he die fighting the bad guys?  I’m leaning toward good guys but we could see a twist.

Padan Fain – Will he cause an important character to die before he finally dies?  I can’t even remember the last sighting of Fain.

 

 

Undecided

Suian & Gareth - Haven't decided if they will live or die.  Could really care less about them to be honest  ;D

Moraine - I think Moraine may truly die after assisting Rand one final time (aka after her purpose in life is finally fulfilled).  I believe Moraine is crucial in ensuring Rand's survival, in terms of bringing down his protective walls and allowing him to become completely sane/human again, and will do so.  Perhaps she will end up with Thom Merrilin.

Lan - I haven't decided what Lan's fate will be:  Will he live happily ever after with Nynaeve?  Or will he go out in a final blaze of glory?  If Lan dies, I believe him and Nynaeve will conceive a son at some point beforehand.  The deaths of both Lan and Moraine would feel appropriate considering how book one began.

Galad - I could see his fate ending either way...he could usher the Whitecloaks into a new age...he could die...or he could end up somewhere else entirely.

Gawyn - Where was he last mentioned?  Book 10?  Will Gawyn return to Camelyn as Captain General?  Will he and his Younglings return to the tower after Egwene becomes the true Amrylin?  Will he and Egwene live happily ever after?

Eladia – Will she realize how foolish she has been?  Will she die to another’s hand, or her own?  I’d like to see her present at the final battle, attempting to redeem herself but I’m not sure that she will last that long.

Thom Merrilin – Will he survive and live happily ever after with Moraine?  Or will he die, having made up for his nephew Owen by protecting/aiding Rand?

 

 

Overall I think it’s safe to say that most if not all of the known bad guys will be rounded up and disposed of.  Body count in secondary characters (Verin, Alanna, etc) may very well be extremely large.  Overall I think the major characters will mostly survive with a few exceptions.  Maybe I’m too attached and it is affecting my predictions ;D.

 

On another note, I can’t help but wonder if there will be any sort of similarities between the final battle v. Rand, and the final battle v. Lews Therin & the Hundred Companions.  Will the Tinkers have a role?  Who will be there to sing for Rand’s sanity, so to speak?  Will Rand kill someone he loves?  I’ll be sad to see the series end, but I’m eager to read the final book.

 

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A lot of the minor character deaths are actually very painful. I think I sometimes bond with characters who I don't have a great reason to love but just do. The worst deaths for me were Fedwin Morr and Eben Hopwil. I cried for Fedwin, and was close to it with Eben  :'(. I hope many of the characters survive TG, or else it would be a very depressing and empty ending to the story. What's the point of using thouands of pages to make us love characters, and then just ripping them to shreds? If the world goes up in dust, I just pray that RJ will let Nynaeve and Lan have their happy ending. I really want Moiraine to live too. So far the main characters seem to be able to survive just about everything, so I'm hoping their luck will hold up!  :)

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But you still didn't answer my question. How can three people fall from a height of 90 feet and walk away?  Simple!  As per Robert Townsend's movie Hollywood Shuffle:  "I believe this movie. A dude could jump off a mountain and not hurt himself, 'cause he did brace himself, and knew something about the levels of gravitivity and polarity'."  The best quote ever.  It was the explanation why Indiana Jones never got hurt.

 

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90 feet is quite high..but really, there was a woman who survived a 9-story fall with only a few broken bones...and more incredibly there was a man and a woman who jumped out of a flying plane and pulled their chutes, which did not work and crashed to the ground from some thousand feet, and survived altho with wery damaged bodies...so a 90 feet fall might not surely kill you...

tho i wouldnot like to try... :-\

 

and one the chars that fell was a very powerful ta'veren...

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touche! 

 

But can we get Nynaeve, Elayne, and Perrin to jump out of a plane?  It was made clear that in the time of legends they had some mass transport airborn thingies.  If Rand is Lews, it could happen.

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Also, how bored would you get if they DID stay dead? Imagine the plot line if the following happened;

 

Egwene remained Damane and was taken back to Seanchan, never to be seen again.

Moghedian killed Nynaeve in their Tel'aran'rhiod meeting, and Birgitte also

Mat stayed hung, Rand couldnt resuscitate him

OR Mat / Aviendha / Asmodean remained dead after they first went to attack Rahvin in Caemlyn.

 

Even more so - Rand died after 'sheathing the sword' in the sky in his battle with Ishy.

 

He HAS to keep them alive, plus the majority of them have the Power / armies / excellent healers to help keep them alive.

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