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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Being spun into the pattern and the Horn of valere?


Blackrose
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  i also believe noal is farstrider.  that would kinda suck if he died though, for olver at least.  and he still has to play a part in rescuing moiraine, unless the other person was supposed to be the little tike. 

 

  but more on the topic, how mad were ishy's mad ramblings about him and the dragon doing battle for time immemorial?  there is still a possibility that this is by no stretch the actual last battle.  even if the bore is closed in a more permanent sense, we have to assume another meirn will come around, next time the 2nd age rolls in.  the only likely way to prevent this is for rand to pull a switcheroo on ishy, and break the wheel, otherwise the cycle will repeat.  in this instance, the horn happened to be hidden for a special set of circumstances, but in other ages, it could have been used however anybody that possessed it saw fit, thus harnassing the power of the dragon. and it also seems likely that we'll see a new slew of heros emerging after TG, considering the comments from hawkwing.

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  i also believe noal is farstrider.  that would kinda suck if he died though, for olver at least.  and he still has to play a part in rescuing moiraine, unless the other person was supposed to be the little tike. 

 

 

I think he'll die in the rescue, or right after. His deeds rescuing her and his return with the blowing of the Horn will affirm his heroic stature that he's doubted so much.

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  i also believe noal is farstrider.  that would kinda suck if he died though, for olver at least.  and he still has to play a part in rescuing moiraine, unless the other person was supposed to be the little tike. 

 

  but more on the topic, how mad were ishy's mad ramblings about him and the dragon doing battle for time immemorial?  there is still a possibility that this is by no stretch the actual last battle.  even if the bore is closed in a more permanent sense, we have to assume another meirn will come around, next time the 2nd age rolls in.  the only likely way to prevent this is for rand to pull a switcheroo on ishy, and break the wheel, otherwise the cycle will repeat.  in this instance, the horn happened to be hidden for a special set of circumstances, but in other ages, it could have been used however anybody that possessed it saw fit, thus harnassing the power of the dragon. and it also seems likely that we'll see a new slew of heros emerging after TG, considering the comments from hawkwing.

 

Ishy's ramblings might not be mad, but in truth they were no more than conjecture. Ishy couldn't possibly know that he has personally done battle with the Dragon, he only assumed (and his thoughts on this were probably influenced by the DO, as well). Some people question what he has said, pointing out that he was egocentric in his beliefs, foolishly believing that he has personally fought the Dragon.

 

Other than that, though, his beliefs are legitimate.

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I think I've read somewhere that what he said is technically true but this last battle is going to be the Last Battle to end all Last Battles.

 

Now someone mentioned Birgitte and Gaidal. I wonder, since they're always born roughly around the same time, now that Birgitte's not in the picture... what would happen to Gaidal? Is he now simply unable to fulfil his fate? Would this make him any less of a hero?

 

As for adding new heroes to those bound to the Horn and why the Pattern doesn't just put all its stock heroes to be born together etc... My only answer would be "It (all the heroes being born together) doesn't happen because that's cheesy like a Chinese period drama." I don't doubt that Mat and Perrin will be bound to the Horn as new Heroes.

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Do you think that if the horn were destroyed that the Heroes would cease to be reborn? It is the only one physical link that bings them to the real world.

 

Uhm, no. The Horn is just a tool to make it possible to call forth the Heroes. Without the Horn, ok you can't call on them to help you out, but they'd still be heroes, spun out when needed by the Wheel

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I don't doubt that Mat and Perrin will be bound to the Horn as new Heroes.

 

i probably have just forgotten but, why perrin?

 

Blowing the Horn isn't necessary to become 'bound' to it as a Hero, it just makes it so the Horn only works for the person who blew it. People like Mat and Perrin are heroes who will become legends in the coming Age(s), they'll become immortalised by this in memory so obviously they're most likely to become Heroes of the Horn as well.

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The Pattern has its own kind of "fuzzy logic".  Its probably not developed to the point of being an awareness, but it could be considered as something like a highly complex computer program.  This "fuzzy logic" is what tells the Pattern when to make someone ta'veren, when to create cool special effects like the image of Rand battling Ba'alzamon in the sky over Falme (and over the other False Dragons at the time, too).  If the "fuzzy logic" program determines that a person would be useful to have again and again in the Pattern, then it can probably just snatch that soul into Tel'aran'rhiod at the moment of death.

 

The Horn takes advantage of that connection, calling all the souls that happen to be tied to the Pattern and in Tel'aran'rhiod at the time into the world.  It also makes them all but invulnerable, seemingly by overlapping Tel'aran'rhiod with the "real world" in some way ...

 

So:

 

A Hero gets tied to the Horn by being tied to the Pattern in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

A Hero get tied to the Pattern in T'A'R by being very, very useful to the Pattern.

What's up guys, I haven't been on for a while. You can't tear me away from my PS3 long enough, heh heh.

If you remember, RAW, from quite a while ago, I had a theory on the common demoninator between Herid Fel and Ishy. Which basically came down to Ishy coming to the conclusion that mankind was forever stuck in a paradox (being reborn over and over), thus finding and releasing the DO, along with Lanfear of course, in order to end this paradox.

Now, of course we all know Ishy took a bad path, but what if he had the right idea. Yeah, I was drinking Tequila when I came up with the original theory, which was more based on Ishy having been a champion of light gone bad sort of thing. (Which, I still might be on to something  ;)) However, Herid Fel I believe came up with the same conclusion, the paradox, the difference was, he found a peaceful way to end it, which is why he was killed.

 

OK, got that out, go ahead and rip it apart, lol.

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anyone els think that oliver might be gidal cain?  its just somthing ive been kinda thinking for a while.  might be why briget is drawn to him so much.  i know he is kinda old, but time flows diferently in the real world and tel roide.  im probly wrong, but it was just an idle thought anyway

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anyone els think that oliver might be gidal cain?  its just somthing ive been kinda thinking for a while.  might be why briget is drawn to him so much.  i know he is kinda old, but time flows diferently in the real world and tel roide.  im probly wrong, but it was just an idle thought anyway

 

There are many reason why Gaidal is not Olver. But the main one is that Gaidal is seen in the real world, at Falme, after Olver is already born.

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anyone els think that oliver might be gidal cain?  its just somthing ive been kinda thinking for a while.  might be why briget is drawn to him so much.  i know he is kinda old, but time flows diferently in the real world and tel roide.  im probly wrong, but it was just an idle thought anyway
No one else believes this. RJ has shot it down. Time does not go backwards in T'A'R. Ever.You are definately wrong. This has been shot down numerous times. Anyone who still believes this is an idiot. This means you! Maybe next you will think that Taim is Demandred....And I know this is impolite, but really, how many times do these things need to be shot down before the idiots get the message?

 

I don't doubt that Mat and Perrin will be bound to the Horn as new Heroes.
i probably have just forgotten but, why perrin?
Blowing the Horn isn't necessary to become 'bound' to it as a Hero, it just makes it so the Horn only works for the person who blew it. People like Mat and Perrin are heroes who will become legends in the coming Age(s), they'll become immortalised by this in memory so obviously they're most likely to become Heroes of the Horn as well.
You are, of course, assuming that they are not Heroes already. Anyway, I see no reason why it should be necessary for either of them to become Heroes, and to be honest, I don't really care if they do, but would prefer it if they didn't. I don't exactly see it as a reward.
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anyone els think that oliver might be gidal cain?  its just somthing ive been kinda thinking for a while.  might be why briget is drawn to him so much.  i know he is kinda old, but time flows diferently in the real world and tel roide.  im probly wrong, but it was just an idle thought anyway

 

There are many reason why Gaidal is not Olver. But the main one is that Gaidal is seen in the real world, at Falme, after Olver is already born.

 

Actually, that is the second reason.  The main reason is that RJ has said right out that Olver is not Gaidal Cain.  Then he used the fact that Olver is too old to be the reason why he shouldn't have needed to say as much as he did.

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I don't doubt that Mat and Perrin will be bound to the Horn as new Heroes.
i probably have just forgotten but, why perrin?
Blowing the Horn isn't necessary to become 'bound' to it as a Hero, it just makes it so the Horn only works for the person who blew it. People like Mat and Perrin are heroes who will become legends in the coming Age(s), they'll become immortalised by this in memory so obviously they're most likely to become Heroes of the Horn as well.
You are, of course, assuming that they are not Heroes already. Anyway, I see no reason why it should be necessary for either of them to become Heroes, and to be honest, I don't really care if they do, but would prefer it if they didn't. I don't exactly see it as a reward.

 

The reason why I don't think that Mat and Perrin (or at least Mat) is already a hero is because when he blew the Horn, the only one that the summoned Heroes addressed with familiarity was Rand. If Mat were already one of those heroes, Hawkwing would probably have been like "Oh, it's you."

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I don't doubt that Mat and Perrin will be bound to the Horn as new Heroes.
i probably have just forgotten but, why perrin?
Blowing the Horn isn't necessary to become 'bound' to it as a Hero, it just makes it so the Horn only works for the person who blew it. People like Mat and Perrin are heroes who will become legends in the coming Age(s), they'll become immortalised by this in memory so obviously they're most likely to become Heroes of the Horn as well.
You are, of course, assuming that they are not Heroes already. Anyway, I see no reason why it should be necessary for either of them to become Heroes, and to be honest, I don't really care if they do, but would prefer it if they didn't. I don't exactly see it as a reward.

 

The reason why I don't think that Mat and Perrin (or at least Mat) is already a hero is because when he blew the Horn, the only one that the summoned Heroes addressed with familiarity was Rand. If Mat were already one of those heroes, Hawkwing would probably have been like "Oh, it's you."

 

Not necessarily. Ok, I don't believe any of the TTR boys are Heroes, but just for arguments sake, Hawkwing could have recognized but ignored Mat and Perrin, because they are not supposed to know they are heroes. Look at Birgittes ponderings about the difference when she was spun out normally, without a clue about being a Hero, just going about her business as they happened, and her being ripped out from T'A'R, with full knowledge of what she is.

 

Just saying:)

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I believe its obvious that Hawkwing recognised Rand because that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and because of the obvious connection to Lews Therin. But with Mat and Perrin, we really have not been shown any connections to them with reincarnated souls from the past, except for perhaps the multitude of old memories which the 'Finns gave to Mat. Will Mat, Perrin and Rand become spun into the future pattern as Heroes of the Wheel and Pattern? I really don't know, and any thoughts about that would be pure guesswork and speculation.

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I believe its obvious that Hawkwing recognised Rand because that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and because of the obvious connection to Lews Therin. But with Mat and Perrin, we really have not been shown any connections to them with reincarnated souls from the past, except for perhaps the multitude of old memories which the 'Finns gave to Mat. Will Mat, Perrin and Rand become spun into the future pattern as Heroes of the Wheel and Pattern? I really don't know, and any thoughts about that would be pure guesswork and speculation.

 

Those memories are not from Mats past incarnations.

 

Rand will not be bound to the Horn. Unless he actually does succeed in not only defeating the DO, but actually destrying him, which would remove the need for The Dragon from the pattern. But that won't happen, Rand is a man, Shaitan is a god. 

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I believe its obvious that Hawkwing recognised Rand because that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and because of the obvious connection to Lews Therin. But with Mat and Perrin, we really have not been shown any connections to them with reincarnated souls from the past, except for perhaps the multitude of old memories which the 'Finns gave to Mat. Will Mat, Perrin and Rand become spun into the future pattern as Heroes of the Wheel and Pattern? I really don't know, and any thoughts about that would be pure guesswork and speculation.

 

Those memories are not from Mats past incarnations.

 

Rand will not be bound to the Horn. Unless he actually does succeed in not only defeating the DO, but actually destrying him, which would remove the need for The Dragon from the pattern. But that won't happen, Rand is a man, Shaitan is a god. 

Even before he gains his Finn memories, Mat had flashbacks while ill about him leading armies against Trollocs, so I think he definitly is a Hero.
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Unless he actually does succeed in not only defeating the DO, but actually destrying him,

 

 

i dont think that's true, i think that he could become a hero, simply by facing the DO, that takes a lot of heroism....

 

Different kind of hero. The Dragon has one job, the Heroes another. A few others actually, but with the same general purpose.

 

Quote from: Majsju on Today at 09:46:53 AM

Quote from: Vambram on Today at 09:01:18 AM

I believe its obvious that Hawkwing recognised Rand because that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and because of the obvious connection to Lews Therin. But with Mat and Perrin, we really have not been shown any connections to them with reincarnated souls from the past, except for perhaps the multitude of old memories which the 'Finns gave to Mat. Will Mat, Perrin and Rand become spun into the future pattern as Heroes of the Wheel and Pattern? I really don't know, and any thoughts about that would be pure guesswork and speculation.

 

 

Those memories are not from Mats past incarnations.

 

Rand will not be bound to the Horn. Unless he actually does succeed in not only defeating the DO, but actually destrying him, which would remove the need for The Dragon from the pattern. But that won't happen, Rand is a man, Shaitan is a god. 

 

Even before he gains his Finn memories, Mat had flashbacks while ill about him leading armies against Trollocs, so I think he definitly is a Hero.

 

The old blood is strong in the TR. Mat is a direct descendant of the people of Manetheren. And as seen when he is healed in the WT, he might very well have been a prominent soldier/officer in one of his previous incarnations. That does not make him a Hero.

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