How do you think the tone of the show will evolve (or not)?

[ForsakenPotato]

I've been finished with the books for a while and am now waiting (impatiently) for the next season, and was kinda trying to think of new things to discuss. One thing that struck me about the books is they are extremely varied in their tone. That sounds bad but I don't actually mean it in a bad way, just that there are large sections that are quite dark and large sections that are quite silly. I'm remembering a number of the escapades of the traveling circus, a lot of the physical comedy (at least 50% of which is spanking), some of the misunderstandings between Rand and Avhienda when they are first getting to know each other, many of Matt's romance and/or gambling side stories, and most of the time that Nyneave loses her cool. Obviously this is balanced with quite a lot of darker material--slavery, human meat grinders, and sexual assault for example. It feels like a much broader range than most fantasies.

 

I'm really curious if the show will attempt to keep this balance or not. I think it's more likely that it trends a bit darker from what we've seen so far: the kiddos are a bit less naive, Thom appears grittier and less flamboyant, Mat seems like a darker character with a darker background even before the dagger. There is definitely still some humor in the show and it's much brighter than say, House of the Dragon. But I also remember Eye of the World being a relatively serious and traditional fantasy novel and it's only in the rest of the series that things start getting truly zany.

 

What do you all think (or hope)?

[Scarloc99]

I don't see the spanking scenes as being comedy, they show the way men and women interact and follow a trend which is a very subtle BDSM element running through the entire series, switching spanking, tying up, the way men and women behave to each other, not to mention some of the scenes with Mat later on as well as the Seanchan practices etc. One friend of mine who has got about 2/3rds of the way through the series during her first read through commented recently on the same thing. In fact I don't see much comedy throughout the series, there are lighter moments but RJ does not write them for laughs.

In terms of Darkness I agree you have the way the Forsaken use Compulsion, anything from forcing non darkfriends to act as spies through to using it as a form of torture and rape. You also have several other scenes of Rape throughout the series. I am intrigued as to how much of this will appear on screen. 

I think it was always going to be the case that Rafe would change the tone of season 1 to closer match the rest of the book series. In part to ensure audiences knew what they where getting into, it has been mentioned on this forum that episode 1 sets very clearly the main rules of the series in terms of Nudity, Sex and Violence both so that Viewers can feel able to make that personal choice as to if this is the series for them, and not mis sell the entire show getting people invested in season 1 and then by season 3 have a very different show. I also feel if RJ had written book 1 after the shadow rising it would have been a very different work, far less LOTR and more his own voice.  In part he wrote it that way because at that time (early 90's) fantasy books had to follow a certain trope to get published. 

 I feel we might see more of Thoms flamboyance in season 3 when he returns, I think he is one character who would have benefitted from the 10 episode season 1 Rafe originally wanted. 

In terms of tone my hope is that it follows the same kind of path it is, Darker episodes (I personally want a hinderstep episode written as a full on horror), followed by those lighter moments with the tone slowly shifting as the final battle approaches. I don't want to see any of the relationships played for laughs and I do not expect to see a single instance of Spanking. I do hope we see the strange dynamic of the Perrin Faile relationship the Poly marriage of Rand and the 3 women and get a sense of just how little the forsaken value life and how much they love to humiliate because they can. But I want it to be less i your face then GOT/HOD, more fade to black, following the examples defined in things like the James Bond films, rather then going for a Bridgerton esque type of show (there is a scene with mat which could be a copy of the scene where Daphne ensures she tries to get pregnant). 

Personally I see Avihenda's story at the start as a tragedy, every time Rand does something he thinks is nice he ties her up more and more in Toh to Elayne, she tries so hard to fight the fate she saw out of a sense of duty and honour to who she sees as her sister but Rand constantly undermines that without realising it until finally she breaks. Every time I read that whole section starting in book 3 and carrying on I don't see comedy, I see frustration and the sense of inevitability Aviehnda is trying to fight. I really hope it is portrayed that way in the TV series rather then as a humorous side story. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[WhiteVeils]

There are two ways to do tone.  The first is plot/script, and I think @Sir_Charridspells it out very well: I think the tone through the series will be what it is in first season - serious, even gritty, but with very human jokes and human moments of humor similar to the way real life works. Some people will crack an ironic joke in the face of great danger, and a few of those characters are in Wheel of Time and are going to stay that way. 

The other way to do tone is through lighting and set design.  You can keep the colors bright, the lighting clear, even ethereal, or you can make it dark, gritty, dirty, and so on.  Jackson uses this power to great effect in Lord of the Rings as the hobbits move away from the bright clean shire to the filthy, wretched, and dark Mordor.   Game of Thrones targets that dark vibe for the whole series because it starts in a dark and wretched world even if some people are happy in it.  

I think the Wheel of Time may use this same effect for the series, starting it as brightly and 'cleanly' as it did intentionally so that, as the series goes on, it can get darker and darker in tone, using the sets and lighting to show the Dark One's touch upon the world. This will make things like the bubbles of evil make much more sense.  

We'll see if they do that.
 

As to Thom Merrilon specifically, it's important to remember that Thom always was a chameleon in the books. He always looked the same and seemed to stand out, but he /was/ a very successful spy, blending in with the servants of various castles, going from juggling in a rural village to playing in a party by the highest elite of Cairhien. So his aspect may change as he fits into whatever setting he happens to be in next.

Edited December 19, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[ForsakenPotato]

Hmm I guess agree to disagree with @Sir_Charrid on whether the sexual politics in the books were being played for laughs or not. It's not that I don't believe there was a real bdsm element, or that I don't think Jordan was also trying to make specific deeper points about romantic relationships -- but I do think they were often set up in a way that was intentionally comedic. I'm recalling Elayne's crush on Thom, Birgette's thing for "ugly" dudes, the uncountable number of times characters make ridiculous statements about the opposite gender, a number of times characters who like each other "accidentally" see each other naked, the amount of hand wringing various characters do over how tight or low cut specific dresses are, etc. A lot of those scenes felt straight out of a 90s rom com to me. Even the Tylin and Mat scenes (to be clear, not saying that was normal bdsm, her treatment of Mat was completely non-consensual assault) seemed like they were written to be a bit funny (which, reading those scenes for the first time in 2021, they really were not).

 

Robert Jordan may have taken issues of gender, relationships, sexuality, and consent very seriously, but his characters often don't. There's a variety of reasons why (their own age and maturity, the cultures they were raised in, the coping mechanisms they've developed, and what was socially acceptable to write openly about in the 90s). I think this will be toned down/made much more nuanced in the show, at least based off how they've handled the relationships we have seen. Personally, I think that's a good choice--it takes some very talented people to effectively use humor around difficult or divisive topics and I'm not really convinced this show is up to the task.

 

However, I still hope some other humorous points or situations in the books that don't require as much sensitivity are preserved. Loial has already had some great moments in the show and I hope he gets more screentime. Verin should be introduced soon and her playing dumb strategy has a lot of comic potential. And hopefully Uno will drop plenty of creative curses for the folks who like that.

[Dagon Thyne]

Well, according to Rafe, Season 3 is going to follow the story much closer.....

 

Season 2 is a blend of books 2 and 3.....and Season 3 will be book 4.

 

So we will get to see the Aiel Wastes,and a lot of walking through deserts.   

 

 

 

But it also means we have the Battle of the Two Rivers.  Another chance for Rafe to have a large scale trolloc battle, and prove he can do it right.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Dagon Thyne

[Scarloc99]

17 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Well, according to Rafe, Season 3 is going to follow the story much closer.....

 

Season 2 is a blend of books 2 and 3.....and Season 3 will be book 4.

 

So we will get to see the Aiel Wastes,and a lot of walking through deserts.   

 

 

 

But it also means we have the Battle of the Two Rivers.  Another chance for Rafe to have a large scale trolloc battle, and prove he can do it right.

It depends how he films it, in the book Robert Jordan gives the battle itself just a paragraph, the build up is what gets the time. Perrin seeing the women massed around the flagpole children in the middle, going from group to group, the way RJ builds that scene is what them leads to a real sense of elation and a tear from just a few lines of description 

 

Part of me hopes the scene doesn’t turn into a version of the battle of winterfell, 45 mins of the trollocs attacking the villiage, I kind of hope it is filmed to give you certain moments, the bowmen firing on an unending stream of trollocs with the catapults launching explosives to bac them up. Loial armed with an axe the gentle giant standing his last stand, Aiel fighting back to back, Perrin pulled off his horse, camera switching to the white cloaks showing them not moving, not showing the women at all

until suddenly they are there pushing back the trollocs, and then the other forces turn up. Scene ends and return as per the book to the aftermath. 
 

As an aside we will also get to see the aiel fighting trollocs, pretty sure there are 2-3 trolloc attacks in the wastes. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[ForsakenPotato]

Wonder if we'll get the same progression of monsters as in the books, like starting with trollocs and fades and then adding the darkhounds, grey men, the vampire doodads, etc. I'm guessing a few get added but not as many as in the books? Some, like the grey men, seem like they would be especially challenging to film.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, ForsakenPotato said:

Wonder if we'll get the same progression of monsters as in the books, like starting with trollocs and fades and then adding the darkhounds, grey men, the vampire doodads, etc. I'm guessing a few get added but not as many as in the books? Some, like the grey men, seem like they would be especially challenging to film.

I think Grey men are one of the possibilities we will see.  Not requiring makeup/cgi and the such and while they might be difficult it film I think they can find some tricks.  Camera focusing techniques where they are out of focus but clearly moving into frame or something to that effect.

 

But yes I would love to see more shadowspawn.  I think drakgaur might be the most difficult without them being cheezy.

[DaddyFinn]

Draghkar weren't very important in the books. I wouldn't mind if they were cut. Greymen, darkhounds, gholam, trollocks and fades are the most important IMO. Maybe some others that are in a scene or two, just for us booklovers, but not recurring.

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Draghkar weren't very important in the books. I wouldn't mind if they were cut. Greymen, darkhounds, gholam, trollocks and fades are the most important IMO. Maybe some others that are in a scene or two, just for us booklovers, but not recurring.

I'm very keen for the Gholam to be in the show but I would not be surprised to see it cut. Lots of time explaining about it required with very little time available for the series. Plus the drinking of blood.

 

Darkhounds only make the cut depending on how much time we end up getting on the Wolf side of things. Without the reveal that they are fallen wolves they are not that important.

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Mailman said:

I'm very keen for the Gholam to be in the show but I would not be surprised to see it cut. Lots of time explaining about it required with very little time available for the series. Plus the drinking of blood.

 

Perhaps the Gholam could eat people instead of just drinking their blood. It's existence is pretty important for Mat's storyline.

 

 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

Draghkar weren't very important in the books. I wouldn't mind if they were cut. Greymen, darkhounds, gholam, trollocks and fades are the most important IMO. Maybe some others that are in a scene or two, just for us booklovers, but not recurring.

I can see us seeing Draghkar for one simple reason, the attack on the Aiel that is a feint for a Draghkar sneak attack on Rand sees that moment between Avihenda and Rand as they save each other. It also sees the Maidens carrying dolls for a while afterwards. The attack also spurrs Rand to stop waiting around and pushes him onwards. That whole scene is one I am really looking forward to. You see just how much all aiel are warriors seeing everyone face covered regardless of profession. 

[Scarloc99]

26 minutes ago, Mailman said:

I'm very keen for the Gholam to be in the show but I would not be surprised to see it cut. Lots of time explaining about it required with very little time available for the series. Plus the drinking of blood.

 

Darkhounds only make the cut depending on how much time we end up getting on the Wolf side of things. Without the reveal that they are fallen wolves they are not that important.

Gholam can be explained really easily, I can't remember which it is but the Forsaken who finds and releases it can be explaining to the others what he has found and released, you could then cut scenes and have him narrating what it is and how it behaves over the scene where the Gholam kills Rands Philosophiser who is studying the Prophesies. You don't need any sound from the actual scene just that voice, talking about how dangerous they are. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Gholam can be explained really easily, I can't remember which it is but the Forsaken who finds and releases it can be explaining to the others what he has found and released, you could then cut scenes and have him narrating what it is and how it behaves over the scene where the Gholam kills Rands Philosophiser who is studying the Prophesies. You don't need any sound from the actual scene just that voice, talking about how dangerous they are. 

Or since the series is showing the weaves on screen just seeing them melt on touching the gholam (in a very similar effect to them melting on Mat assuming he is getting his medalion) should cover most of the explanation along with not bleeding when cut and squeezing through tiny gaps.  If they are allowing any big heroic moments for Mat it is very important.