Siuan and Moiraine’s Relationship

[Skipp]

If the show makes it to Dumai's Well it won't be until season 4 or 5 I would think.  That is plenty of time for people to cool to the word "Kneel"

[Mirefox]

I think it is an unbelievably sad commentary on our society that there cannot be Platonic love without someone trying to sexualize it.  The scene was crude and forced and about as natural as if Sam and Frodo hooked up after Sam rescued Frodo in Cirith Ungol because, after all, they had bathed together and laid naked on the downs together and Sam had kissed Frodo when he recovered in Rivendell…

 

Sexualizing a platonic relationship cheapens greatly a relationship that so many would love and very few actually achieve.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Sexualizing a platonic relationship cheapens greatly a relationship that so many would love and very few actually achieve.

So you’d agree that they’ve done an excellent job with the Lan/Moiraine relationship then?

[flinn]

1 hour ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

I agree.   It highlights that their choices have a personal cost for them.   

 

 

 

I always find it fascinating how important minor little plotlines like Thom and Gareth are to some fans.   I'd cut Gareth out of the show on the first day. ?

 

 I wouldnt care if Gareth was cut. Only issue I see with that is that he is one of the Great Generals and the rebels will need someone with that kind of reputation to lead their army.

 

 Thom is going to save Moiraine, without a love story would he have the motivation. Of course they can change it and make it Mat wanting to save her and Thom tags along for Mat's sake, but still we get into so much changing of something that in many ways didnt need to be changed.

[Sabio]

It will be interesting to see how they handle the see through Seanchen servant attire.  

[JenniferL]

16 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I think it is an unbelievably sad commentary on our society that there cannot be Platonic love without someone trying to sexualize it.  The scene was crude and forced and about as natural as if Sam and Frodo hooked up after Sam rescued Frodo in Cirith Ungol because, after all, they had bathed together and laid naked on the downs together and Sam had kissed Frodo when he recovered in Rivendell…

 

Sexualizing a platonic relationship cheapens greatly a relationship that so many would love and very few actually achieve.

 

But they are not platonic in the books. In New Spring, they kiss right before the lights go out (if you know what I mean, say no more) know each other’s ticklish spots and Moiraine gets jealous of Siuan being interested in men after leaving the Tower. It’s very much in the books that their relationship was sexual at one point. Pillow friends are romantic relationships. 

[Mirefox]

35 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

So you’d agree that they’ve done an excellent job with the Lan/Moiraine relationship then?

I don’t know that I’d use “excellent” for anything in the show, but for a show with many problems - including butchering Lan’s character in general - Lan and Moiraine’s relationship is fine.

[gibbons]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

@JenniferL - my thread "On your knees!" was locked but referred to another thread.  Is this it?

 

My thread was more about the phrase uttered than the relationship between Siuan and Moiraine.  I guess some people had a problem with the phrase being used in the bedroom.  My question was it's relation to Rand at Dumai's Wells.

 

So is this the right place to ask that question or not?

 

Thank you.

I believe rafe mentioned in his Q&A that dumais wells was a pivitol moment, or one of his favourites I can't recall his exact wording, so I would be surprised if it isn't a subtle nod to that.

The romance side of things is fine, though I wonder if the doorway they used is the same in function as the doorways used for the testing. If so I wonder if Siuan will have her authority attacked further for hoarding ter'angreal later on.

[Therese Sedai]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

I think it is an unbelievably sad commentary on our society that there cannot be Platonic love without someone trying to sexualize it.  The scene was crude and forced and about as natural as if Sam and Frodo hooked up after Sam rescued Frodo in Cirith Ungol because, after all, they had bathed together and laid naked on the downs together and Sam had kissed Frodo when he recovered in Rivendell…

 

Sexualizing a platonic relationship cheapens greatly a relationship that so many would love and very few actually achieve

 

It‘s possible to be best friends with your lover and I get a clear sense of that in their private interactions. I’m not sure how their romance demeans their friendship.
 

Plus Siuan and Moiraine were already canon prior to the show. Their relationship was explicitly romantic in New Spring.

 

I would like to add that the vast majority of same sex relationships on screen are platonic. I would say that probably 95% of f/f relationships in media are platonic or familial. So what it says about our society is that when the other 5% gets rare and necessary representation, it can feel quite jarring when we’ve spent our lives watching platonic love.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Therese Sedai
Addition

[Therese Sedai]

54 minutes ago, gibbons said:

I believe rafe mentioned in his Q&A that dumais wells was a pivitol moment, or one of his favourites I can't recall his exact wording, so I would be surprised if it isn't a subtle nod to that.

The romance side of things is fine, though I wonder if the doorway they used is the same in function as the doorways used for the testing. If so I wonder if Siuan will have her authority attacked further for hoarding ter'angreal later on.

I think you’re onto something with the ter’angreal and it might be part of her undoing when they unseat her. 
 

I’m almost certain that in one of the books a number of sisters are found to have ter’angreal in their personal quarters and are punished for it. Does anyone remember the context or which book? 

[JenniferL]

I believe it’s after Dumais Wells when Elaida is panicking and Alviarhin says she’ll clean it up, but Elaida must obey her. Alviarhin tells her to issue a harsh penance to sisters holding *angreal and rewards to a bunch of random sisters so everyone would think they turned them in. It’s part of the Black Ajah plot to weaken the Tower. 

[fitzwell]

1 hour ago, JenniferL said:

 

But they are not platonic in the books. In New Spring, they kiss right before the lights go out (if you know what I mean, say no more) know each other’s ticklish spots and Moiraine gets jealous of Siuan being interested in men after leaving the Tower. It’s very much in the books that their relationship was sexual at one point. Pillow friends are romantic relationships. 

Can you quote where the kiss is in the books?  The only reference I've seen to them being called pillow friends was by another Aes Sedai talking about Moraine and Suine in chapter 17.  Of course you can make of that however you prefer but I believe there were instances where the Egwene and Elayne were referred to as becoming pillow friends yet the reader knows they did not.  Again, it's fine to feel either way I just always took it as hearsay from the other Aes Sedai.  I actually thought the kiss was crazy in the show and started outright laughing at how silly it seemed.  If that is your thing though, you do you.

[TheSmurf]

Their relationship imo is fine, and they sold the scenes well... I just don't care for these add-on scenes instead of some more focus on the book 'main characters'. 

 

It's all preference *shrugs*

[Guire]

I can't remember how much imperial style prostrating and bowing played a role in Tower dynamics.  I thought the love scene was a bit drawn out in places.  The power dynamic reversal in relationship was a bit to advanced for me.  I would have liked to see Moraine rush into her arms and say I have found them. Their sexual relationship felt separate from quest relationship and that felt strange.  No issue with relationship.  Was indulgent to see so much Moraine while list checking other characters.

[DaddyFinn]

8 hours ago, mogi68 said:

I'm fine with Moiraine and Siuan having a thing but I dont really want to see any sexual content on the show tbh. It don't think it really belongs and it feels a little gratitutous. I felt the same about the Rand/Egwene scene in EP1

The books have plenty of "fade to black sex scenes". Graendal's mindless pets even do orgies IIRC. Nothing is explicitly described but they also don't leave much room to doubt that something is going on. The show has kept the same principle so far and I love it. It's exactly how I want sex to be portrayed in it.

 

Poor Rand, he always has to find new shirts after he and Min are done because she tends to rip them apart.

Edited December 11, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[DojoToad]

8 hours ago, JenniferL said:

Yeah, I think you’re reaching there. 

Ha!  It wouldn't be the first time.  Been over a year since I finished my last run through the books.

[Terry05]

I like the way Rafe and co are handling the sex scenes and the nudity from the latest episode. Fresh change from the GoT style of if it's sex or nudity, it has to be degrading.

[JenniferL]

10 hours ago, fitzwell said:

Can you quote where the kiss is in the books?  The only reference I've seen to them being called pillow friends was by another Aes Sedai talking about Moraine and Suine in chapter 17.  Of course you can make of that however you prefer but I believe there were instances where the Egwene and Elayne were referred to as becoming pillow friends yet the reader knows they did not.  Again, it's fine to feel either way I just always took it as hearsay from the other Aes Sedai.  I actually thought the kiss was crazy in the show and started outright laughing at how silly it seemed.  If that is your thing though, you do you.

 

Chapter 12 “Entering Home”

 

Quote

"If you say so, Siuan." Moiraine did not sound as if she believed, either. "There is one thing I can remedy. May I offer you healing?" Siuan could have kissed her. In fact, she did.

 

[The Purple Ajah]

10 hours ago, fitzwell said:

Can you quote where the kiss is in the books?  The only reference I've seen to them being called pillow friends was by another Aes Sedai talking about Moraine and Suine in chapter 17.  Of course you can make of that however you prefer but I believe there were instances where the Egwene and Elayne were referred to as becoming pillow friends yet the reader knows they did not.  Again, it's fine to feel either way I just always took it as hearsay from the other Aes Sedai.  I actually thought the kiss was crazy in the show and started outright laughing at how silly it seemed.  If that is your thing though, you do you.

Quote

"There is one thing I can remedy. May I offer you Healing?" 

Siuan could have kissed her. In fact, she did. (New Spring, Chapter 12)

Siuan and Moiraine turned to one another more and more for comfort, and they eventually became pillow friends, continuing up to the time they were raised Aes Sedai and to some extent for a time thereafter. (Companion)

It is definitely more overt than the book series, but let's not pretend it is somehow baseless. Nor is the scene of kissing, a somewhat coy comment, and then cutting to after the 'action' any more crude or crass than Jordan's writing style e.g. Lan talking about Nynaeve scratching his back to ribbons, or Birgitte's reaction to what is going on between Rand and Elayne in the other room in Winter's Heart.

[fitzwell]

This seems to be open to the readers interpretation.  It's fine to believe either way I guess but the Wiki and others are stating it as fact which again, seems to be up to the reader.  My reaction initially to this was to just start laughing out loud.  This to me based off my reading was like butch cassidy and the sundance kid kissing.  I always took the two to be thick as thieves but it was all about their marriage to their cause.  It is fine either way just pretty unexpected.

[SinisterDeath]

18 hours ago, JenniferL said:

She wears something with a little bosom to it. But there’s no emphasis on her chest or any other part of her body. We saw a partly naked bath attendant, but she was shown in a non sexual context. 

As a guy with a male gaze, when the camera zoomed up past Alanna, her cleavage was noticable. Nothing sexual about it. It was just there.

 

As for the bath attendant, I joked that we got "boobies", but that was it. Non-sexualized nudity...

 

Something that's lacking in Media today.

[The Purple Ajah]

Also worth noting that as an episode with a female director, female writer, female costume designer and assistant costume designer, male gaze is kind of less likely. Sometimes women enjoy wearing dresses like that, lol.

[SinisterDeath]

24 minutes ago, The Purple Ajah said:

Also worth noting that as an episode with a female director, female writer, female costume designer and assistant costume designer, male gaze is kind of less likely. Sometimes women enjoy wearing dresses like that, lol.

?

More or less stating that as a male viewer, even if that wasn't the intention, they stood out compared to the rest of the Aes Sedai. 

[ForsakenPotato]

I thought it was cheesy but like the right level of cheese for WoT? Because the book romances can be pretty over the top as well. I think it's a nice way to help the theme of how duty can take couples apart, which has already started with Rand and Egwene but will intensify over time and which Lan and Nyneave will also struggle with sometimes.

 

My dad watched the episode with me, said he wasn't that into it, and then we went skiing yesterday and he spent half the time asking me about all the characters and said I had to wait for him to watch the next episode. And my friend who was watching on her commute texted to say "clever as a pike strong as the tides I am crying on the bus halp". So I do think the Moiraine and Siuan relationship was pretty effective at making a lot of TV watchers care about the characters and their futures.

 

I think the criticism from a lot of book readers is a) this didn't happen to this degree in the books and b) are Siuan and Moiraine the characters that we should care the most about at this point in the show? Which is super valid.

 

Re: the male gaze I think there is a difference in how things are filmed and directed, it's not just costuming. Alanna had that dress on because it's probably her most formal dress for an audience with the Amyrlin and she's not self-conscious about her assets, but it wasn't over-the-top (We have Lanfear to look forward to for that). The camera didn't linger on it. She didn't give sexy eyes to any of the other characters. She wasn't trying to seduce anyone. When she cries when Moiraine leaves she doesn't pull a hanky out of her cleavage or something. It's a wardrobe choice that signals her character is comfortable being seen in a sexual way but they don't force every scene with her to have innuendo.

[Sabio]

We should care about Moiraine, but these are also the episodes they need to be building up why we need to care about the 5 super kids.  They have done a great job with Moiraine and even Siuan but they have really skipped over most of the wonder kids.