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How should ta'veren be shown in the show?


expat
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Since the brief mention of ta'veren in the first episode, the show hasn't expanded on the theme or shown their effects explicitly.  How should the show deal with the fact that the boys (and maybe Egwene) are ta'veren?

 

1.  Ignore it and combine the ta'veren effects with the other character abilities (Perrin - wolfbrother, Matt - luck, Rand - channeler)

2. Keep it off-screen, but with an occasional comment (e.g., like the scene on the chase to Tear where Moraine discovered that everybody got married after Rand walked through town)

3. Use it to handwave the necessary Deus Ex Machina events

4. Explicitly show it on screen through the actors

 

The first three are easy to write, but lack the impact of ta'veren in the books.  Explicitly showing it on screen fit the books better and make for better viewing, but requires a well thought out concept and good writing. It would be tempting to handwave away lazy, poor writing as ta'veren effects. 

 

Is it worth the risk to try to show ta'veren effects on screen or should the show play it safe and continue to downplay the concept?

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2 hours ago, expat said:

Is it worth the risk to try to show ta'veren effects on screen or should the show play it safe and continue to downplay the concept?

I must admit that I did not like how the show opened with mention of "there's four ta'veren in Two Rivers!" Ugh.

 

The ta'veren effect is noticed after an interaction, not detected before. Even so, one must have a rare specific (channeling?) sense that is keen to detect it. Ta'veren folk are the ultimate influencers, and they are indeed rare. Did an Aes Sedai (Siuan?) travel through Two Rivers at some point in the recent past and feel the effects of ta'veren? If so, how could they get an exact #? Oh well...I suspended my disbelief.

 

To answer your question, I feel that the ta'veren effects should be demonstrated by folks normally interacting with a certain individual, with a specific agenda, then leaving the conversation with their agenda twisted...then they (or another) must realize that their opinion has changed retroactively...and then wonder why!?! Ohhhhh!  

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I honestly have no idea. I don't envy the writers on this one. An idea like this is hard to translate to screen. Showing Mat winning every fight and dice roll is going to make him look like an archetype action hero who dodges a thousand bullets for no good reason other than the plot requires him to stay alive. The only early ta'veren sign in the books that I think translates well is Perrin becoming "Lord Perrin" with his leadership when the shadowspawn are attacking Emond's Field to try and draw out Rand. The idea of a sort of magnetism and charisma that makes people want to follow you is close enough to real life traits to be believable.

 

"Rumors of four ta'veren" I took to be more of a foretelling if anything. Someone saw it in a vision or whatever. I don't think in-place scouts would have had anything to see. As far as I understand, the effect doesn't really start until later for all of them anyway. As children, they look and feel the same as everyone else.

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Combination of being used to handwave some "too easy" solutions.  Otherwise you can show the contrasts and the weirdness.

Or the effect can be shown by something like:

Spoiler

When it comes time for the Seafolk negotiations.  Spend time SHOWING the Aes Sedai trying to work things out and getting nowhere, then Rand shows up and they start acknowledge this or that and slipping up.

 

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No one is born Ta'veren, they only become so when the Wheel requires it.

 

I'm not sure how to show it on screen exactly, however I do know it's very important to show both the useful side effects (luck, amenable people, making hilarious amounts of money off gambling), but also the negative ones. Being a ta'veren is neither a blessing nor a curse it's a messed up combination of both that you have no control of, but that you can try to predict to an extent.

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I think that Mat's luck can be a good entry point into showing tav'veren effects.   We already saw him not having luck while at the Winespring Inn.  Once his luck turns, it is a much different story.

 

Personally, I've chosen not to think to hard on the whole tav'veren line yet.  I think the show writer's should be given a little credit for how they've managed to translate things like the taint/corruption into show and not tell so far.

 

Mileages will probably vary though...

 

 

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56 minutes ago, ManetherenTaveren said:

The ta'veren effect is noticed after an interaction, not detected before.

My new pet theory is that Min traveled through the Two Rivers at some point. Her visions could be the source of the 'rumors' and would also jibe with Rafe's reference to the Blue Ajah 'eyes and ears'.

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For inspiration for at least Mat, whose ta'veren-ness tends to come out more in combat, Deadpool 2 had a minor character whose superpower is "luck". They all make fun of her for that not being a thing but they did a good job at putting it on screen! Could definitely take some ideas from that (Domino's highlight real below)

 

 

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2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

My new pet theory is that Min traveled through the Two Rivers at some point. Her visions could be the source of the 'rumors' and would also jibe with Rafe's reference to the Blue Ajah 'eyes and ears'.

Interesting. I read a similar theory on a reddit thread a few days back. Given Moraine's prior acquaintance with Min, that may shed some light on the "four ta'veren in TR" assumption, although I don't remember if Min could detect ta'veren or not (like Siuan could). Stay tuned, I guess.

 

(Min was certainly "magnetized" by ta'veren though...at least toward Rand! I adored her clinginess most of the time)

Edited by ManetherenTaveren
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9 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Would she have seen a viewing related to her and Rand on that trip?    

 

Possibly. Maybe that's why she headed for the Borderlands. Perhaps she was still new at the vision-seeing thing and hadn't yet realized their inevitability, so she fled to Fal Dara hoping to escape her fate.

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I'm still going with the notion that what we see of Nynaeve in ep. 4 is due to Logain's ability to see ta'veren, and is meant to imply that the number should have been 5, not 4. It matches the descriptions we get from Siuan in TGH and Nicola in LoC.

 

There's often been discussion of whether Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve were also ta'veren, if not as strongly so as Rand, Mat and Perrin, so it's not really that much of a stretch.

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27 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Honestly making so many people ta'veren weakens the whole point of ta'veren in my opinion. Besides Rand, Mat, and Perrin have very specific things happen to them because they're ta'veren. Having to introduce that concept into other characters' plots is cheap in my opinion.

 

I agree to a point, however ta'veren was really RJ's handwave solution for forcing the plot direction. Don't get me wrong--it was a novel solution to an annoying problem. However, Like a few other things, it was never integrated particularly well into the world building. (See the 100s of pages of arguing over relative channelling strength for another example.)

 

Even with the changes the central idea is still there: there are multiple ta'veren around the Dragon when everyone expects only one.

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