Horn of Valere - yes, spoilers

[DojoToad]

When the horn was first blown by Mat, the heroes said they needed the banner to follow.  Everyone waited while Perrin cut a sapling and mounted the banner - never mind the Seanchan.

 

But it is also said the heroes will fight for whoever blows the horn - be they light or dark.  Am I misremembering?  If a trolloc got to the horn first, would the heroes have just showed up and just milled around because they didn't have a banner to follow.

[redarm]

There's a strange thought, lol.  Perhaps it was more that it didn't feel right to go into battle without a banner. It was a clear message to those who saw it.  Not sure the same would have been "required" had the other side blown the horn.  Its a good piece of imagery though.  The great heroes riding in under the grand banner.  

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, redarm said:

There's a strange thought, lol.  Perhaps it was more that it didn't feel right to go into battle without a banner. It was a clear message to those who saw it.  Not sure the same would have been "required" had the other side blown the horn.  Its a good piece of imagery though.  The great heroes riding in under the grand banner.  

To me it came off as the banner being a requirement for them to move. And I think it changed later. But it has been a while. 

[Agitel]

I think the Pattern required it for that moment, when Rand rides in, the Pattern announces him across the sky, and all the false dragons are struck down in that moment.

 

I don't think it's a general requirement. It was a matter of prophecy.

[DojoToad]

Don't believe that distinction was made in the books, but I can see it.  Good thought.

[DojoToad]

No one else has a thought?

 

Guess the tv show is more relevant now…

[Siberian Rat]

You have to keep in mind that the first two books, especially the first, are not entirely consistent with the later ones, since RJ was writing a much shorter series at that time.

[Matrim K]

They do mention this in book 2, but I believe in AMoL they ask them and they clarify that they would not fight for the side of the dark.  I am not sure if the Light side was flying Rand's banner during the Last Battle, which is the only other time we see the Horn blown.

[Sabio]

Yeah Mat was rather abruptly told they would never fight for the DO when he tried to say he heard they would and Hawkwing was like you heard wrong.

[qlorin]

On 11/9/2021 at 4:38 PM, DojoToad said:

But it is also said the heroes will fight for whoever blows the horn - be they light or dark.  Am I misremembering? 

You are not misremembering. That is said. But charcters in the books are not all knowing beings. They think it works like that. It is just rumors nobody in this age examined the horn. Nobody even see it in this age.

It is explained like this by the ghosts. If there is two sides fighting and one of them is the Dark One's forces ,  heroes will fight along side with the light. If two factions unrelated to the Dark One is fighting , heroes will fight with whoever sounds the horn.

[Youss99]

In the book, after Matt summons them, Hawkwing says something holds him.  He says I have come to horn, but must follow the banner, and the Dragon.  It's been a long time and I would have to look up exactly the page and the specific text.

 

It seems likely that under some circumstances the heroes follow the horn sounder, but in others, they must follow the weave of the pattern.

[Sabio]

If the banner was never found I'm not sure if they would fight for anyone.  It could be the first time they are summoned they need the banner and the dragon to be present, but after that the horn just needs to be sounded.  They are bound to the horn but I suspect they have some say if someone kept sounding the horn simply to have them off their enemies.

[Andra]

It is said by Aes Sedai that the Heroes will follow whoever sounds the Horn - whether from the Light or the Shadow.  But it is clarified later by the Heroes themselves that they would never fight for the Shadow.

 

I don't believe that the Banner is necessary for them to fight, but if it's there they have to follow it.  At Falme, they sensed its presence but didn't see it displayed.  So they said they needed it.

[Jaysen Gore]

On 11/9/2021 at 8:38 AM, DojoToad said:

When the horn was first blown by Mat, the heroes said they needed the banner to follow.  Everyone waited while Perrin cut a sapling and mounted the banner - never mind the Seanchan.

 

But it is also said the heroes will fight for whoever blows the horn - be they light or dark.  Am I misremembering?  If a trolloc got to the horn first, would the heroes have just showed up and just milled around because they didn't have a banner to follow.

I believe that you've finished the series, and may not have caught it, but I'll spoil the AMOL ending just in case.

 

Spoiler

The Yin Yang symbol swirls in the air in the clouds over Merrilor, and that is accepted by the Heroes as a banner of the Dragon, which is why they could fight.

 

And Hawkwing laughs at Mat's suggestions that they could fight for the Dark. They are bound to fight for the light, and the light only

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Jaysen Gore

[wotfan4472]

There are three separate stipulations for the Heroes in two separate situations during battle; one, they only fight for the Light against the Dark One if they are needed to fight his forces. 

Two, if the Horn is blown during a fight between two groups of soldiers in a regular war, like the Aiel War, they will follow the Hornsounder, but only if the blower is thinking about survival when he or she blew it. 

The third stipulation is the need of the Dragon's banner in order to fight. The situation above, the Aiel War, may not need this banner stipulation to be active, I am not certain. 

[Chivalry]

On 11/9/2021 at 5:38 AM, DojoToad said:

When the horn was first blown by Mat, the heroes said they needed the banner to follow.  Everyone waited while Perrin cut a sapling and mounted the banner - never mind the Seanchan.

 

But it is also said the heroes will fight for whoever blows the horn - be they light or dark.  Am I misremembering?  If a trolloc got to the horn first, would the heroes have just showed up and just milled around because they didn't have a banner to follow.

I don't think RJ had fully developed his mythology...there are inconsistencies in the first few novels.

 

Or perhaps Moraine was just wrong, and the Horn would not answer anyone who blows the horn (iirc, she was the one who made this claim initially).

 

Regardless, I just loved that scene where Hawkwing says "Something's missing...where is the banner?" God I hope we get to see some version of this scene next season.

[rowdie]

Did they ask the same question when Olver blew the horn?   I can't Remember.

[rowdie]

15 hours ago, Chivalry said:

I don't think RJ had fully developed his mythology...there are inconsistencies in the first few novels.

 

Or perhaps Moraine was just wrong, and the Horn would not answer anyone who blows the horn (iirc, she was the one who made this claim initially).

 

Regardless, I just loved that scene where Hawkwing says "Something's missing...where is the banner?" God I hope we get to see some version of this scene next season.

Since the Horn was under the throne in  Fal Dara, and a few guys with picks knew right where to find it, I don't expect much when they actually use it.