tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[sidcarton2]

7 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

1. Warder bond I believe has been well referenced. Feeling the pain of the AS is mentioned in ep3 already. And the releasing is obviously not meant to be considered now, just will be referenced later not come out of the blue. 

 

2. I don't believe it is in TAR. The Prime extras say clearly not. And we have had no info about ter'angreal at all. But why does that matter at this stage? 

 

3. Not understanding what you mean is different btw books and show. Both show that AS bicker is while the world burns. 

 

4. You think they've forgotten the Trollocs? 

 

5. Mat said in Ep1 that the DR has to be the greatest Channeler who ever lived. Though he could be mistaken. Has it been proven Mat can't channel? Or that wolf brotherhood is not connected to channeling? Besides which, iirc RJ said the DR can't channel in every cycle, so even if they have done this it is not a new possibility. 

 

6. The little dropped hints are the thing that is most like the books. Are you saying that in the show people won't go back to check half remembered nuggets like when reading and therefore they have to make everything more obvious???!!! 

 

7. I don't see how this is changed from this stage in the books when we knew nothing about any of their roles. 

 

#1 -- that is my point exactly. I watched with a number of people who clearly did not make the connection. It was curious to me because on rewatch I think if I hadn't already read the books I could see where I might not have made the connection. 

 

#2 -- Agreed, but it wasn't made clear from the show what it actually was. As a book reader I made the leap that it was T'AR because the books did not mention such a TR that could do that. Further, since we were never shown Siuan's quarters prior, we have no way of knowing where "there" is. Given that we also had some view into dreams in previous episodes, my mind went first to "oh that's T'AR", not some random place in Tear. As to why it matters, I think to me it matters because it's a missed opportunity to flesh out the world and T'AR specifically, which a lot of people are going to be using in the future. Unless they plan to cut out a lot of T'AR (or cut it out entirely).

 

#3 -- What I mean about the bickering is that the books provided a lot of buildup before we get to that level. The beginning of the story made the AS very much mysterious, powerful, and subtle -- basically unknowns with which we had limited interaction. The main characters more than passing interactions with the AS were limited to Moiraine and Elaida, and that got the broad range of AS behavior across (they can be helpful, but can also be a bit creepy, so be wary around them!). I guess it was a problem for me because it slowed down the pacing of the story too much and made the relatively abrupt jump to the Eye even more jarring. To each their own, I am just reporting what the show-only watchers in my group were experiencing. 

 

#4 -- Did they forget about the Trollocs? Sure seems like they did. The Trollocs were in short order replaced by Whitecloaks and Aes Sedai politics as the threat. Even Shadar Logoth was only mentioned passing with respect to Mat, and the Fade attack on the family was, again, only in reference to Mat. None of the other characters really seemed to be processing what happened with the Trollocs -- and they didn't mention them or really dwell on what happened beyond a line or two here and there, for multiple episodes. 

 

#5 -- Fair point, but then how much would Mat, a character from the back end of nowhere, know about channeling? It's really jarring to me when I hear some random character say things like that. Another example from the same episode was Rand saying something along the lines of "we heard X about way gates"? When? Who would they have heard about way gates from in the TR? The AS barely know about them. That is some exposition that I could see Loial or Moiraine providing, not Rand. 

 

#6 -- No, I'm not saying show-only watchers won't go back to check. I'm saying that they won't know what to check for. Many of them might check in on the inter webs and get the whole story eventually, but it won't be because the show dropped those hints in a way that would suggest they should. The hints about Rand are deliberately being dribbled in the way they are because they're trying to service the "who is the DR??" mystery, and I'm saying that if you don't provide context for who and what the Aiel are in the world, and the payoff isn't for two seasons down the road when you meet the Aiel, that will be a lot of episodes where show-only watchers will either have to read the details on the inter webs or they'll just miss out on a lot of nuance that we book readers already know. 

 

#7 -- Except that at this point in the books (which is closer to where they are Caemlyn than Tar Valon) we know a lot more about them as characters than we do in the show. Cutting out Tam's fever dream for example undercuts Rand's arc -- his self-about about who he really is and which ultimately points to him being the DR when combined with Moiraine and Siuan's experience with Gitara and the Blood Snow. Min's viewings nicely laid out there there were big things in store for the EF 5 even if we didn't have all the details, but we don't have Min here yet, so there needs to be a better way to get the info across. All I'm saying is that if the show is planning to go there in later episodes that is certainly an option (and it sounds like they are), but what they are doing now, especially in service of maintaining the (unnecessary in my opinion) mystery of who the DR is, makes character development and motivation more difficult than it should be, especially when you are trying to build an audience that has a large population that doesn't have all the background knowledge that book readers have. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by sidcarton2

[fra85uk]

 

Worth a look

 

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, DermidAjala said:

 

Love or hate the show I think it's incredibly admirable how much she has got to know the character. Wasn't expecting her to toss out references to omissions like the coins or start quizzing the interviewer on whether they've read up on the background haha.

 

I think Moiraine took the cause in a particularly deeply felt way, because she felt there was great significance in this moment of her being given this information. She was going to sacrifice everything to see through what she perceived as her duty. One of the things that she doesn’t reveal to very many people, but which is obviously preying on her mind, is that whoever comes between the Dragon and the Dark One will die. And I think this is the cause for which Moiraine is prepared to die. And that is a very unusual thing for any character, it’s tremendously brave and courageous.

 

 

Very interesting, this. I wondered if the four dying meant Moiraine thinks she will too, and it seems so

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ralph

[Ralph]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

https://tvline.com/2021/12/10/the-wheel-of-time-episode-6-rosamund-pike-moiraine-enter-ways/
 

Interview with Rosamund Pike following episode 6 

Really interesting interview. Thank you

 

Lots to ponder

[DigificWriter]

It will never make sense to me how or why people come to the conclusion that changing or adding things equals a lack of respect.

 

Pivoting back to the ter'angreal, there are several things to keep in mind with regards to whether it makes sense for Moiraine and Siuan to have them at all and use them for the purpose for which they do:

1) The entire White Tower believes that Siuan and Moiraine are enemies, which is a false narrative that they have cultivated in order to hide both their true relationship and their partnership in searching for the Dragon Reborn

2) Because everyone in the White Tower believes that Moiraine and Siuan are enemies, there is no reason for anyone to even entertain the notion of the two of them meeting in secret for any reason whatsoever

3) There is nothing out of the ordinary about Moiraine and Siuan's ter'angreal, and therefore no reason that anyone would bother to notice them as anything more than wall decoration

4) Alanna is probably the only Aes Sedai that has ever seen the inside of Moiraine's chambers, but has most likely never seen the inside of Siuan's chambers and would therefore not have any knowledge of the pair having seemingly identical wall decorations

5) Constantly being on the road is both arduous and dangerous, and it would be highly impractical for Moiraine to spend hard-won resources to haul her ter'angreal around with her, assuming that she even could

[Yojimbo]

41 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

This is the third attempt that I know of and all three never honored the books... Flight from Shadow being the closest of the bunch. Some things are never meant to be recreated.

You could be right, but there was a time when I remember people saying Dune was unfilmable, or LOTR was unfilmable, or any number of things were unfilmable.   All it takes is the right writer, director, and cast to make it come alive.   But if this show goes on for 3 or 4 years then it might be the last attempt at it in my lifetime.   If so, then it is what it is.  The wheel weaves as the wheel wills.   

 

[Ralph]

15 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

It will never make sense to you because it is your personal opinion, just like it is the personal opinions of those that believe the show is a great disservice to the novels. It's all subjective.

 

With respect, to say that changing shows lack of respect is not the same as saying it is a disservice. If you agree that the adaptors may have believed it was the correct thing to do despite respecting the source material, they may be utterly wrong, but it is not a lack of respect 

[NetNightmare]

 

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

5) Constantly being on the road is both arduous and dangerous, and it would be highly impractical for Moiraine to spend hard-won resources to haul her ter'angreal around with her, assuming that she even could

And await 2 years to convey an information it is not highly impractical ? being on the road is ardous and dangerous, though for an AS end a blade master  who can fight off a contingent with 300 hundred Trollocs and a fade I would say it is a tiny bit less dangerous... and to add that the tactical advantage to be able to communicate would overwhelm any kind of impracticability imho.

 

If the Ter'Angreal cannot be moved, I would say that either there is one in every AS quarter, which make it basically Traveling possible (to some extent) for all AS or for a cosmic happenstance Siuan and Moraine got assigned the only quarters with such a powerful object of magic.....

 

This imho is a simple case of careless and bad design they should have taken counsel from Perrin and thought this thoroughly

[Yojimbo]

19 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Good points for sure. Side note and just my opinion of course but I still believe Dune is unfilmable, all three on screen adaptations + the never done Jodorowsky (who I despise with all my being) version didn't come close to the novels - it's too complex of a universe to be properly adapted for core book fans. However, I prefered David Lynch/ Dino De Laurentiis version becase it was so wildly different and I like David Lynch's work.

 

I digress. 

I haven't gotten to see the new Dune yet unfortunately.  I would like to though.    I also kinda like the Lynch version (not so much the first time, but after seeing it again many years later). 

[Bill1185]

hard to believe that I first started reading WOT over 30 years ago. when I first heard they were making a TV show of it I got super excited. because I never reread it the details have been a bit foggy. yet I still remember the base story very well as this was my very favorite book series. so my opinion of the TV show is favorable. my 14 year old son who never read the books is watching it with me and I am very surprised how well he is fallowing all the small details of the story. every time one of the 5 do something special he blurts out that is the DRB. for me its great he has so quickly gotten into the series and every week as soon as it comes out on Friday he is ready to watch it. for all you with teenagers, you all know they prefer their friends to hanging out with dear old dad. all this being said I do hope they add more detail and background to the characters.things I think needed more detail's is the dagger, the ways, the oger's ect

[NetNightmare]

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Worth a look

I do not 100% agree with what she says, but I like she is analyzing the show and not comparing it to the book. I do agree that from a visual stand point they could have done a way better job and that in many cases their turning seems "unlikely" at best.

[Raezold]

58 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:

 

And await 2 years to convey an information it is not highly impractical ? being on the road is ardous and dangerous, though for an AS end a blade master  who can fight off a contingent with 300 hundred Trollocs and a fade I would say it is a tiny bit less dangerous... and to add that the tactical advantage to be able to communicate would overwhelm any kind of impracticability imho.

 

If the Ter'Angreal cannot be moved, I would say that either there is one in every AS quarter, which make it basically Traveling possible (to some extent) for all AS or for a cosmic happenstance Siuan and Moraine got assigned the only quarters with such a powerful object of magic.....

 

This imho is a simple case of careless and bad design they should have taken counsel from Perrin and thought this thoroughly

 

If you pay attention you'll notice they got assigned the same room.

They just move the furniture around when one of them is gone.

?

[DigificWriter]

47 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:

If the Ter'Angreal cannot be moved, I would say that either there is one in every AS quarter, which make it basically Traveling possible (to some extent) for all AS

 

I don't think this is a conclusion that we can definitively draw.

 

53 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:

And await 2 years to convey an information it is not highly impractical ?

 

Just because they hadn't had face-to-face contact in over 2 years, it doesn't mean that they hadn't spoken to each other in over 2 years.

 

With regards to the two ter'angreal and the impracticality of hauling them aound, they look to me upon cursory examination to be around 12 inches in height and double that (at least) in width, meaning that one of them would require a single rather bulky saddle bag to transport, and if Moiraine were to need to travel lightly and swiftly on horseback, a bulky saddle bag would become an impractical accessory, particularly if there were other means of communicating with Siuan that didn't necessitate face-to-face meetings (which there most likely would have been).

[Katherine]

5 minutes ago, Raezold said:

 

If you pay attention you'll notice they got assigned the same room.

They just move the furniture around when one of them is gone.

?

OK. 

 

I was so confused when the girls went to see Suian. I thought "Why are we all in Moraine's room"? 

 

I literally did not pick up on the fact that it was supposed to be her's. 

 

 

[Deviations]

I didn't get to see this episode until Friday night and was traveling over the weekend so my comments are not timely.  Apologies.....

 

All that time dedicated to Moraine and Siuan?  Loial is just a prop for who knows what reason.  So many things that have been given short shrift or passed over completely.  His presence at this point is confusing.   Why bother with him at all?  He doesn't help get them into the ways, doesn't really explain them, bah!  I also really like the carved wooden hands they've given him.

 

Anyhow, I know this ground has been covered by those more eloquent than me.  We are also fairly well dug into our WWI trenches.  I'll keep watching as long as they keep making it but I'm not happy with it by any measure.

[FanofKnotai]

5 hours ago, sidcarton2 said:

 

#1 -- that is my point exactly. I watched with a number of people who clearly did not make the connection. It was curious to me because on rewatch I think if I hadn't already read the books I could see where I might not have made the connection. 

 

#2 -- Agreed, but it wasn't made clear from the show what it actually was. As a book reader I made the leap that it was T'AR because the books did not mention such a TR that could do that. Further, since we were never shown Siuan's quarters prior, we have no way of knowing where "there" is. Given that we also had some view into dreams in previous episodes, my mind went first to "oh that's T'AR", not some random place in Tear. As to why it matters, I think to me it matters because it's a missed opportunity to flesh out the world and T'AR specifically, which a lot of people are going to be using in the future. Unless they plan to cut out a lot of T'AR (or cut it out entirely).

 

#3 -- What I mean about the bickering is that the books provided a lot of buildup before we get to that level. The beginning of the story made the AS very much mysterious, powerful, and subtle -- basically unknowns with which we had limited interaction. The main characters more than passing interactions with the AS were limited to Moiraine and Elaida, and that got the broad range of AS behavior across (they can be helpful, but can also be a bit creepy, so be wary around them!). I guess it was a problem for me because it slowed down the pacing of the story too much and made the relatively abrupt jump to the Eye even more jarring. To each their own, I am just reporting what the show-only watchers in my group were experiencing. 

 

#4 -- Did they forget about the Trollocs? Sure seems like they did. The Trollocs were in short order replaced by Whitecloaks and Aes Sedai politics as the threat. Even Shadar Logoth was only mentioned passing with respect to Mat, and the Fade attack on the family was, again, only in reference to Mat. None of the other characters really seemed to be processing what happened with the Trollocs -- and they didn't mention them or really dwell on what happened beyond a line or two here and there, for multiple episodes. 

 

#5 -- Fair point, but then how much would Mat, a character from the back end of nowhere, know about channeling? It's really jarring to me when I hear some random character say things like that. Another example from the same episode was Rand saying something along the lines of "we heard X about way gates"? When? Who would they have heard about way gates from in the TR? The AS barely know about them. That is some exposition that I could see Loial or Moiraine providing, not Rand. 

 

#6 -- No, I'm not saying show-only watchers won't go back to check. I'm saying that they won't know what to check for. Many of them might check in on the inter webs and get the whole story eventually, but it won't be because the show dropped those hints in a way that would suggest they should. The hints about Rand are deliberately being dribbled in the way they are because they're trying to service the "who is the DR??" mystery, and I'm saying that if you don't provide context for who and what the Aiel are in the world, and the payoff isn't for two seasons down the road when you meet the Aiel, that will be a lot of episodes where show-only watchers will either have to read the details on the inter webs or they'll just miss out on a lot of nuance that we book readers already know. 

 

#7 -- Except that at this point in the books (which is closer to where they are Caemlyn than Tar Valon) we know a lot more about them as characters than we do in the show. Cutting out Tam's fever dream for example undercuts Rand's arc -- his self-about about who he really is and which ultimately points to him being the DR when combined with Moiraine and Siuan's experience with Gitara and the Blood Snow. Min's viewings nicely laid out there there were big things in store for the EF 5 even if we didn't have all the details, but we don't have Min here yet, so there needs to be a better way to get the info across. All I'm saying is that if the show is planning to go there in later episodes that is certainly an option (and it sounds like they are), but what they are doing now, especially in service of maintaining the (unnecessary in my opinion) mystery of who the DR is, makes character development and motivation more difficult than it should be, especially when you are trying to build an audience that has a large population that doesn't have all the background knowledge that book readers have. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well said. 

[WheelofJuke]

16 hours ago, FanofKnotai said:

I hope they do the Green Man. And I hope he’s at least taller than Loial. But I don’t have high hopes with all the changes they’ve made.

[KakitaOCU]

As much as I like the Greenman, he has no over-arching purpose in the story and serves no direct purpose in the books.

Both him and Balthamael serve no narrative purpose or need in the books.  They show up, go away and never come up again (Balth does sorta, but multiple Forsaken could take on that secondary role).

Giving expectations for him is kind of like the people angry that Peter Jackson left out Tom Bombadil or Glorfindel.

[KakitaOCU]

Not sure how this posted triple, sorry, if someone cares to delete.

Edited December 13, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[KakitaOCU]

Not sure how this posted triple, sorry, if someone cares to delete.

Edited December 13, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[Wassup]

10 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

This brings up a good (but obvious) point. At this juncture I foresee the majority of us will remain in our trenches save for a few defectors here and there (from both sides). This is a forgone byproduct of epic "re-creation". I can't think of any original TV shows/movies that have such division across their viewers of this magnitude... it seems more prevalent when producers/screenwriters make an adaptation/"based off" re-telling off some epic source material, especially when money and/or fame is the modus operandi. If passion for retelling was truly at the heart of the matter then finding another avenue of approach outside the heavily constrained monsters like Netflix/Amazon would have been the course. But then, funding for such an endeavour is always an issue, to which I fall back on that "re-creations" should be banned altogether... a very unpopular opinion of mine that usually gets me ran out of town.

To your point I changed to red font:  There are probably original shows that have divided viewers in the beginning.  However, those who are disappointed or do not like it will just walk away and not even discuss it.  The "re-creation" has a fan base that will be divided and dig their trenches. 

[Ralph]

11 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

As much as I like the Greenman, he has no over-arching purpose in the story and serves no direct purpose in the books.

Both him and Balthamael serve no narrative purpose or need in the books.  They show up, go away and never come up again (Balth does sorta, but multiple Forsaken could take on that secondary role).

Giving expectations for him is kind of like the people angry that Peter Jackson left out Tom Bombadil or Glorfindel.

 

Not exactly, because he does give us an extra layer of understanding in the Rhuidean visions

 

But I do think they are likely to miss him out, unfortunately

[KakitaOCU]

13 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Concerning the books, yes they do. It's original sourced storytelling and they are a part of of the readers journey through the volumes... unless you just want the cliff notes so you can get a B- on your term paper.

 

Concerning the show, you are correct, they do not have any value whatsoever.

Same argument can hold for Tom and Glorfindel in LotR.

Original Source storytelling isn't narrative importance.

It's like when people (myself included) were upset about the changes to Abell and Natti Cauthon.
 

Spoiler

What does Abell actually do in the books?
He shows up as Tam's follower essentially in Book 4.  Which he can still do.
He mostly follows in Tam's shadows, making a few lines but otherwise accomplishing nothing directly.
He then has a few small cameos where he does nothing of importance.

What does Natti actually do in the books?
Get Captured with her daughters.
Get rescused.
Have a few small cameos where she does nothing of importance.

The change does nothing to the Narrative.

On a similar note.  Let's look at Greenman (And Balth)
 

Spoiler

What does Greenman do in the books?
|Says hello to the group, gives a bit of an info dump, kills Balthamael and dies.  Moraine can do the info dump, as for killing Balthamael...

What does Balthamael do in the books?
Die to the Green man.

Even Aran'gar doesn't save him because Aran'gar could just as easily be Aginor (Dropping Osan'gar/Dashiva entirely) or it could be Belal or Rahvin if they make the cut, even Asmodean.)

There's just no narrative purpose to justify a big CGI expenditure and casting good actors for a single episode that never comes up again.

Edit: just want to clarify, this isn't me saying I don't want him, I do.  I was also upset when Jackson left Glorfindel out of LotR.  But from the lens of a filmmaker/showrunner, outside of my headspace as a fan wanting to see a cool moment I liked, I can't find any real justification.

Edited December 13, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[Yojimbo]

1 minute ago, Ralph said:

 

Not exactly, because he does give us an extra layer of understanding in the Rhuidean visions

 

But I do think they are likely to miss him out, unfortunately

I was really hoping to see the Someshta, if only because that gave Loial one of his best moments int he entire series.   But I have come to accept he will almost certainly not make the cut.   

[WheelofJuke]

On a very surface level the Green Man doesn't really matter.

 

On a deeper level he's extremely important, being the last living (non-forsaken) creature from the Age of Legends, and was a witness to both the bore AND the breaking, and all that came out of that. 

 

His link between the Aes Sedai of old, the Jenn Aiel, and Rand (as their direct descendent) is a passing of the torch of the Age of Legends. 

 

His death represents the ending of an Age and the turning of the wheel. A true harbinger of the coming of the Shadow.

 

Edit: Which is to say, matters not at all for the t.v. series.

Edited December 13, 2021 by WheelofJuke