tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[KakitaOCU]

Just now, AusLeviathan said:

I am serious, they've already forced a ton of rewrites by changing character focus, changing lore and a whole bunch of other things.

 

Such as?  What has been changed that will force rewrites on any significant level?

[TheDreadReader]

59 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

• Had a thought about past lives/voices of madness: one of Tam's comments in E1 is that (paraphrasing) we don't remember our past lives, implying that maybe it's a good thing. That does tie in with the comments from Semirhage in the books about how being able to talk to your past incarnations is super unhealthy for a person, mentally. I'm wondering if they're expanding that to be a common symptom of madness for male channelers, and if so, does that mean the named woman is a past Logain? Maybe even a past False Dragon?

 

 

This was my take as well, both voices are from past lives.   Some others have theorized that those voices might belong to members of the Chosen who are trying to influence him.  

 

I will say (given that other conversation) that hearing a female voice talking to Logain in that context might  really be the only example of Rafe's huge huge lore change that we see.   Since the change as he described doesn't have to be expressed in some big way.  We will have to wafo.

 

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

What the bloody heck are you talking about?

Logain says his past lives are telling him how to do better and Moraine tells him he's insane.

Aus is comparing that to:
 

Spoiler

Rand on Dragonmount realizing that by repeating the cycle he has a chance to see his loved ones again and try to do things again and do them better.

 

[AusLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

What the bloody heck are you talking about?

Exactly what I said. Moiraine asks Logain why she should believe he's the DR. He gives her his reasons and ends by quoting Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount at the end of TGS. Moiraine responds by smirking like this is a stupid, funny and insane thing to say, she even calls the voices telling him this part of his madness.

 

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Such as?  What has been changed that will force rewrites on any significant level?

Well to start with the fact that the DR can be a woman so we know have female False Dragon's, vague prophecies and in general none of the Two Rivers characters seem that bothered they could be the DR compared to the book where even after he knew he could channel Rand refused to believe it was possible because the idea was so scary to him.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Flamen]

The series already fully rewritten(worldbuilding,lore and characters). On this point we would expect multiple DRs/one of them will be  Rand/. 

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

Well to start with the fact that the DR can be a woman so we know have female False Dragon's, vague prophecies and in general none of the Two Rivers characters seem that bothered they could be the DR compared to the book where even after he knew he could channel Rand refused to believe it was possible because the idea was so scary to him.

And what re-writes does that force?  What part of the books now HAS to change because of that?

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Logain says his past lives are telling him how to do better and Moraine tells him he's insane.

This part is true. How does it square with the whispering voices in Ghealdan. Oh? It doesn't. It all goes to show, there's voices and then there's voices.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

Moiraine responds by smirking like this is a stupid, funny and naive thing to say.

She says it that way, because he sounds insane. 

 

Imagine a homeless person comes up to you and says "the people in my head told me to say hi to you. Hi".

[Agitel]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Also, I always found credence in the Perrin/wife rumors and was not at all surprised to see it depicted

 

Same, I think most people just said "don't jump the gun on a rumor", but I was never saying "that is absurd and never going to happen."

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Flamen said:

The series already fully rewritten(worldbuilding,lore and characters). On this point we would expect multiple DRs/one of them will be  Rand/. 

You might be right. The others will be Frodo and Roose Bolton.

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

Same, I think most people just said "don't jump the gun on a rumor", but I was never saying "that is absurd and never going to happen."

Except that it was fine, and the story goes on.

[KakitaOCU]

Just now, SinisterDeath said:

She says it that way, because he sounds insane. 

 

Imagine a homeless person comes up to you and says "the people in my head told me to say hi to you. Hi".

This a w hole side note I'm curious about...   How many people are freaking out based on OUR full scope knowledge of the story vs what a character in the world, in the moment would think?

Reminds me of my D&D forum where people are arguing it's impossible to be an Atheist Cleric because "The gods are real and exist and grant power!"  Which, you know, the DM and PCs know, but the random guy ON the planet doesn't.

[Agitel]

The Dragon must have three heads.

 

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Exactly what I said. Moiraine asks Logain why she should believe he's the DR. He gives her his reasons and ends by quoting Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount at the end of TGS.

I didn't see that as detracting from Rand's epiphany at all. Maybe, had Rand been in the room. But like @SinisterDeathsaid, "I hear voices" is not exactly the statement of a sane person. I assume Moiraine is operating under the assumption (or hope) that the Dragon will not be insane.

 

Regardless, I found it - along with Dana's speech at the end of E3 - to be nice foreshadowing.

[Kudzu]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

Well to start with the fact that the DR can be a woman so we know have female False Dragon's, vague prophecies and in general none of the Two Rivers characters seem that bothered they could be the DR compared to the book where even after he knew he could channel Rand refused to believe it was possible because the idea was so scary to him.

 

They don't seem that bothered, because they are in denial. None of those other things changes the story, the world building slightly yes, but not the story. 

[Gothic Flame]

Rafe says readers already know who the Dragon is...

But that's in the book.

What better way to "subvert expectations" than by making it someone else in the show?

 

...yeah..I know..

[Agitel]

Moiraine also commented on whether the Wheel itself is capable of wanting. I need to read Veins of Gold again, not sure whether Rand concluded that the Wheel itself wanted anything, but... you know... good characters can still be wrong.

[AusLeviathan]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Imagine a homeless person comes up to you and says "the people in my head told me to say hi to you. Hi".

Sure but they just ruined Rand's big moment by taking the exact situation of him listening to the insane voice in his head and coming to that conclusion and turned it into a punchline.

 

Why? What possible reason could they have for doing that? Oh that's right because Rand won't have that moment in this series because he's not the DR.

 

3 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

And what re-writes does that force?  What part of the books now HAS to change because of that?

Much of the series has to be rewritten, you are aware of how much this series leans into the fact the DR can only be a man right?

 

Also ask yourself this. If they couldn't stomach a prophecy about a male DR, how will they be able to handle "He Who Comes With The Dawn". Get ready for "They Who Comes With The Dawn".

[Agitel]

I think someone's been channeling a bit too much saidin. 

 

That's all I'll say. Back to ignoring.

[Kudzu]

Those who still think Rand might not be the Dragon Reborn.

 

Why would someone decide to adapt a 14 book series. Adapt what is one of the weaker of those 14 books, throw out the rest and write an entirely new story?

 

Yes, yes I know. You think they already are writing a different story, but you're wrong.

[KakitaOCU]

Just now, AusLeviathan said:

Much of the series has to be rewritten, you are aware of how much this series leans into the fact the DR can only be a man right?

 

Also ask yourself this. If they couldn't stomach a prophecy about a male DR, how will they be able to handle "He Who Comes With The Dawn". Get ready for "They Who Comes With The Dawn".

You're avoiding my question.

 

What has to be re-written.  You can keep saying "A lot"  but I'm asking for actual examples and you're balking.

What has to be re-written?

[dog421]

29 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

So Liandrin is supposed to plot to gentle Logain, but not tell anyone that she is plotting that? She's not supposed to try to convince anyone to come to her side?

 

Yes. Which happened in the show - as evidenced by Stepin's conversation with Kerene. From that discussion, we can infer that Liandrin has been arguing that it's too dangerous to keep Logain shielded all the way to Tar Valon and that gentling him would be smarter. We can further infer that Kerene takes the opposite position. We can further infer from Stepin's observations that Liandrin's arguments are finding traction among the other Aes Sedai. 

I see what you are saying, but I didn't feel like I was listening to a conversation between two aes sedai. If you have read the books, you know that a conversation between two aes sedai, especially between when they are in opposition to each other's goals, isn't going to be had at face value. They are the world's master manipulators, and I didn't feel that between these two. 

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

Sure but they just ruined Rand's big moment by taking the exact situation of him listening to the insane voice in his head and coming to that conclusion and turned it into a punchline.

 

Why? What possible reason could they have for doing that? Oh that's right because Rand won't have that moment in this series because he's not the DR.

 

Much of the series has to be rewritten, you are aware of how much this series leans into the fact the DR can only be a man right?

 

Also ask yourself this. If they couldn't stomach a prophecy about a male DR, how will they be able to handle "He Who Comes With The Dawn". Get ready for "They Who Comes With The Dawn".

I'm sorry, but I already mentioned "She Who Comes With The Dawn."

[Sabio]

8 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

And what re-writes does that force?  What part of the books now HAS to change because of that?

Exactly all the female can be the DR does is add suspense that maybe Egwene or Nyn is the DR.  They don't need to provide any examples or anything, it's just to add to the suspense.  Even though it seemed like as soon as they tried to make us suspect it could be Nyn they shot it down like 2 seconds later by pointing out she was 25 or 26.  Not that it means much since Moiraine still seemed to suspect that 30 year old Logain could be the DR.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

the exact situation of him listening to the insane voice in his head

He doesn't come to that conclusion by listening to the insane voice in his head.