tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

Someone else tag in here. I just don't want to rehash this again and again. Here is a closed thread where I believe the ripples were discussed extensively. 

 

Could you share which posters and/or which pages?  I confess that I'm not terribly interested in reading 6 pages I can't engage with full of people complaining about things that will make me see them in a bad light.  

[dog421]

11 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Uhhhh, why not? Liandrin is

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Black Ajah.

and she was very clearly trying to convince the other sisters to immediately gentle Logain. 

When you let people know what you are planning, you run the risk of your plans being contrary to their plans, and when that happens they start trying to undermine your plans. If you say you want to go against Amyrilin and you say it to people who are supportive of the Amyrlin, you give the opposition a heads up of what you are planning, then they start working against you to gather support and turn people who are still on the fence to their way of thinking. When I read the books, I learned a lot about how to act intelligently in situations that required a more political way of thinking. It's not just that I don't see it in the tv series, it's that they do the opposite.

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

And, if you establish the first season as the mistery contest of "who the Dragon is", and for doing this, you are avoiding to characterize the one that will end up being actually the DR, I fear the situation might backlash, because it will make angry the non-readers that they are trying so desperately to please.

 

 

 

That can certainly be a risk.  One of the ways to help mitigate that from a writers perspective is to ensure that you have seeded enough clues before hand so that the reveal feels obvious once it is revealed.   I think they are doing that for the most part.   

 

As it is, I don't see the show-only fan having quite the level of angst shown by some book readers.

 

 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, dog421 said:

If you just elaborate a little, I don't have to assume. Please help me understand what it is you are trying to say.

Every episode will have plot development, 5-8 and 9+. When does Padan Fain gain the Dagger? Dunno. I was estimating episode 25 but that's a shot in the dark. Let's say 17 +/- 10.

[Dizzle]

There’s a lot to digest here and discuss. I think the a major point of contention between fans is the lack of character development and the pace of the show. I would strongly argue that the pace of the first two books are crucial to laying the ground work for the series to function as it does. If you take Lord of the rings for example you get a fantastic idea of what the Shire means to the Hobbits and that is leant on throughout the entire movies or GoT with the Starks and their attachment to the North. Unfortunately in WoT the severe lack of back story and character development has been and will be to it’s detriment. When the trollocs attack Emonds field again and Perrin goes back to defend it, no one will care. If the show stays true to the books and Rand is the DR no one will care as the show has failed to play up his innocence and his battle with his attachment to his identity through his father Tam, and those are just two examples. Mat is supposed to be fun loving, care free and taking the piss out of life, but is this grumpy, jealous and suspicious character even before he takes the dagger so the change now in the last episode is incredibly dark and unnecessary. My point here is basically where the book sets a beautiful tone the shows fail and in doing so resorts to cheap action scenes and brutal deaths.
 

As for my previous point in regards to the number of Aes Sedai required to hold and maintain a shield, this was just an example of the fine details that made the books what they were and the WoT world unique to the readers that have been disposed of in the show. The point itself is actually extremely critical to the story especially in regards to Rand being locked in the chest, his complete distrust for Aes Sedai and constantly counting the number of Aes Sedai. It’s actually a very important point. As is the relationship with his father which is critical in regards to his battle to discover himself and rectify his insanity.
 

The Nyneave storyline is extremely disappointing as it doesn’t feel like the big surprise or the epic show of power we get in the books, but a cheap trick in order to keep fans watching the show. 
 

The lack of time to set up the characters and have the audience care about them is too fast paced and I feel sorry for any person who has not read the books attempting to watch this and understand which character is who and what is going on and unfortunately a lot of reviews have said something similar. It’s disappointing as a fan of the books that this story wasn’t given the respect it deserves by the show to the point where it’s not the WoT story that we all fell in love with but a cheap knock off. Bring back Billy Zane I say.  

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

I mean if you think about it, Perin murdered his wife and let everyone think the Trollocs did it (I don't remember him admitting it) But then again I was still trying to deal with holy crap he murdered his wife.  

 

In episode 4 when Ilya mentions the axe, Egwene responds by touching Perrin.  Perhaps, he told her already offscreen?    

 

It could also be a minor continuity error, I've seen a few already with Rand's bow and quiver.

[Sabio]

My concern is by taking so much attention away from Rand and removing so much of hiry when he dies get revealed people won't feel connected to him, he will feel like a stranger they hardly know since so much attention has been on others.  

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

No idea how these spoilers got in here and it won't let me remove them.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sabio

[Sabio]

2 minutes ago, Dizzle said:

There’s a lot to digest here and discuss. I think the a major point of contention between fans is the lack of character development and the pace of the show. I would strongly argue that the pace of the first two books are crucial to laying the ground work for the series to function as it does. If you take Lord of the rings for example you get a fantastic idea of what the Shire means to the Hobbits and that is leant on throughout the entire movies or GoT with the Starks and their attachment to the North. Unfortunately in WoT the severe lack of back story and character development has been and will be to it’s detriment. When the trollocs attack Emonds field again and Perrin goes back to defend it, no one will care. If the show stays true to the books and Rand is the DR no one will care as the show has failed to play up his innocence and his battle with his attachment to his identity through his father Tam, and those are just two examples. Mat is supposed to be fun loving, care free and taking the piss out of life, but is this grumpy, jealous and suspicious character even before he takes the dagger so the change now in the last episode is incredibly dark and unnecessary. My point here is basically where the book sets a beautiful tone the shows fail and in doing so resorts to cheap action scenes and brutal deaths.
 

As for my previous point in regards to the number of Aes Sedai required to hold and maintain a shield, this was just an example of the fine details that made the books what they were and the WoT world unique to the readers that have been disposed of in the show. The point itself is actually extremely critical to the story especially in regards to Rand being locked in the chest, his complete distrust for Aes Sedai and constantly counting the number of Aes Sedai. It’s actually a very important point. As is the relationship with his father which is critical in regards to his battle to discover himself and rectify his insanity.
 

The Nyneave storyline is extremely disappointing as it doesn’t feel like the big surprise or the epic show of power we get in the books, but a cheap trick in order to keep fans watching the show. 
 

The lack of time to set up the characters and have the audience care about them is too fast paced and I feel sorry for any person who has not read the books attempting to watch this and understand which character is who and what is going on and unfortunately a lot of reviews have said something similar. It’s disappointing as a fan of the books that this story wasn’t given the respect it deserves by the show to the point where it’s not the WoT story that we all fell in love with but a cheap knock off. Bring back Billy Zane I say.  

Honestly they should of went with 2 hour episodes. I think that would of allowed them to slow things down a bit so the pacing doesn't seem to go from warp speed to an entire episode of them in one spot.

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Maybe because Rand's entire plot line has been changed.

No chance.

[Sabio]

It's already been said that anyone who has read the book will know who the Dragon is.

[Agitel]

1 minute ago, Sabio said:

Honestly they should of went with 2 hour episodes. I think that would of allowed them to slow things down a bit so the pacing doesn't seem to go from warp speed to an entire episode of them in one spot.

 

I would have loved it. And you. And certain other book readers. But the episode length and season length was set by Amazon, and Rafe had to contend with that and actor scheduling demands and requirements.

 

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No chance.

 

I can't even deal with comments like the one you responded to. I'm just waiting until 12/24.

 

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, dog421 said:

When you let people know what you are planning, you run the risk of your plans being contrary to their plans, and when that happens they start trying to undermine your plans.

So Liandrin is supposed to plot to gentle Logain, but not tell anyone that she is plotting that? She's not supposed to try to convince anyone to come to her side?

 

11 minutes ago, dog421 said:

If you say you want to go against Amyrilin and you say it to people who are supportive of the Amyrlin, you give the opposition a heads up of what you are planning, then they start working against you to gather support and turn people who are still on the fence to their way of thinking.

Yes. Which happened in the show - as evidenced by Stepin's conversation with Kerene. From that discussion, we can infer that Liandrin has been arguing that it's too dangerous to keep Logain shielded all the way to Tar Valon and that gentling him would be smarter. We can further infer that Kerene takes the opposite position. We can further infer from Stepin's observations that Liandrin's arguments are finding traction among the other Aes Sedai. 

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

 

I can't even deal with comments like the one you responded to. I'm just waiting until 12/24.

 

Is it bad the Mat in me wants them to have Aginor come out, declare he's going to kill the Dragon, go after Nynaeve having gotten it wrong and build that for a minute or two before Rand grabs the Eye?  Just to watch people freak...

[SinisterDeath]

7 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

I don't feel that you were targeting me. But I do feel that comments like that sour the board. I like robust debate. I don't feel that comments such as yours foster that. Just my two cents. Please carry on.

I replied to your reply to WhiteVeils confirming that DM also receives Hate Mail and Death Threats. I can state with certainty that the threats & hatemail DM receives originates from entitled narcissist's. That isn't souring the board. That's stating a fact. 

The site owner of Dragonmount is the one whom allows anyone to post here. As such, it is at the mods & admins discretion to shut down any speech they find hateful, trolling, disrespectful, annoying, etc.
If that means shutting down "robust debate" to contain hate rhetoric from spreading on this site, then so be it.

If Jason were to demand the other Admins & Moderators to delete any negative comments regarding WoT, that is well within his right as the owner of this website. 

Please, Carry on.

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

Notice when we see people channel you always see swirling in the air and such, did we see anything when Rand channeled?

 

In the tub scene with Moiraine and Lan, we saw her make hand motions but there were no magical swirls.

 

One could imagine that is because Lan can't channel and extrapolate that Dana couldn't channel as well.

 

The Logain scene at the end of episode 4 complicates things a little but generally they have said that we'd only see the weaves if the scene's point of view character could see them.

 

[TheDreadReader]

5 minutes ago, Agitel said:

I can't even deal with comments like the one you responded to. I'm just waiting until 12/24.

 

 

It'll be like Christmas then.  ??

[AusLeviathan]

12 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No chance.

You think no chance. Just like how for two years people laughed at the idea Perrin could have a wife that he killed as an absurd rumor and then it turned out to be true.

 

I'd be interested in hearing an opinion of why they would take Rand's big moment and turn it into a punchline that Moiraine makes fun of?

 

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Is it bad the Mat in me wants them to have Aginor come out, declare he's going to kill the Dragon, go after Nynaeve having gotten it wrong and build that for a minute or two before Rand grabs the Eye?  Just to watch people freak...

I think it'll be the other way around. Episode 7 will show the blood snow we saw in the trailer and make people think it's Rand.

 

They'll get to the eye. Ba'alzamon fights Rand and is about to kill him and then to the side we'll have Egwene channeling from the eye and she'll just destroy him to save Rand.

 

Then it'll turn out that's what Ba'alzamon wanted and without the eye the seal will weaken or something and the Forsaken will be released. Cue confusion from Moiraine as Egwene ended up helping the shadow inadvertently so she still doesn't know for sure who the DR is.

 

Then season 2 becomes the DR mystery part 2.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Gothic Flame]

So...getting rid of "Shaido" and "Seanchan"...just a rumor?

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, AusLeviathan said:

You think no chance. Just like how for two years people laughed at the idea Perrin could have a wife that he killed as an absurd rumor and then it turned out to be true.

 

I'd be interested in hearing an opinion of why they would take Rand's big moment and turn it into a punchline that Moiraine makes fun of?

 

I think it'll be the other way around. Episode 7 will show the blood snow we saw in the trailer and make people think it's Rand.

 

They'll get to the eye. Ba'alzamon fights Rand and is about to kill him and then to the side we'll have Egwene channeling from the eye and she'll just destroy him to save Rand.

 

Then it'll turn out that's what Ba'alzamon wanted and without the eye the seal will weaken or something and the Forsaken will be released. Cue confusion from Moiraine as Egwene ended up helping the shadow inadvertently so she still doesn't know for sure who the DR is.

 

Then season 2 become the DR mystery part 2.

It's a cute theory that is 100% wrong.

Also, I always found credence in the Perrin/wife rumors and was not at all surprised to see it depicted, so not sure what you're talking about there. And I don't understand what moment of Rand's is turned into a punchline. Care to elaborate?

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Gothic Flame said:

So...getting rid of "Shaido" and "Seanchan"...just a rumor?

I hope they get rid of the Shaido. Or at least end them far earlier. 

We will see the Seanchan.

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, Chadouken said:

Loved Ep4! I think this show is really starting to find its own way. The departures from the book keeps it fresh for those of us familiar with the story while keeping it faithful to the spirit of the characters.  I'm digging it. 

 

Also, how crazy was it that the Forsaken were talking to Logain through the taint?? 

 

I know people have this theory.  I personally don't see it yet.   But, which forsaken do you think it is?

 

[KakitaOCU]

2 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

You think no chance. Just like how for two years people laughed at the idea Perrin could have a wife that he killed as an absurd rumor and then it turned out to be true.

 

I'd be interested in hearing an opinion of why they would take Rand's big moment and turn it into a punchline that Moiraine makes fun of?

 

See... The fundamental difference here is that giving Perrin a wife who dies gives MORE credence and background to his primary character issue through the series.

Changing Rand... forces a re-write of the entire rest of the series...

Like, I really hope you're just embracing your inner Mat.  No idea how to respond if you're serious.

[Harad the White]

Many of the N&Ns are hopeless cases. We went through the exact same thing with the LoTR movies. Jackson would make excursions, add, and subtract, and, yet, when all was said and done, he created a satisfying epic, that most consider a masterpiece. My crystal ball sees some current N&Ns on a future forum saying, "This is an abomination. Why can't they do it like my beloved WoT did?"

[AusLeviathan]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

And I don't understand what moment of Rand's is turned into a punchline. Care to elaborate?

Logain tells Moiraine the epiphany Rand had of Dragonmount and Moiraine responds by smirking like it's funny. Rand's most powerful moment in the series turned into a joke by episode 4.

 

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Changing Rand... forces a re-write of the entire rest of the series...

Like, I really hope you're just embracing your inner Mat.  No idea how to respond if you're serious.

I am serious, they've already forced a ton of rewrites by changing character focus, changing lore and a whole bunch of other things anyway so that won't bother them.

 

Plus we're in the era of subverted expectations where no one's allowed to get what they want to see and instead they're given the opposite. What better way to subvert expectations then by changing the DR.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, AusLeviathan said:

Logain tells Moiraine the epiphany Rand had of Dragonmount

What the bloody heck are you talking about?