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22 minutes ago, ex WOT fan said:

Has Doman Bayle been written out?  I don't see him in the cast and he has a small part in book one, but a major role in book two.   Who would play him? 


No one outside of the writers knows whether Bayle Domon will appear in season one. Even if he doesn’t appear in the first season, that doesn’t mean he has been written out of the show entirely. 

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Bayle will either be dropped or given to a one-off character I think. The boat journey probably will take place as Matt sees Ghenji, we here snippets about the world being old and hints will be dropped about Male angreal. The one he has will probably come with them, won by Matt in a dice game and he may or may not keep the seal.

A big thing to consider about side characters is however much we like them that most actors and actresses won't, for obvious reasons, commit to 8 or so seasons of cameos or one or two episodes a season. You got two big guns for Westworld because they're probably not doing much but Hopkins and Harris are in every episode.

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3 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

Bayle will either be dropped or given to a one-off character I think. The boat journey probably will take place as Matt sees Ghenji, we here snippets about the world being old and hints will be dropped about Male angreal. The one he has will probably come with them, won by Matt in a dice game and he may or may not keep the seal.

A big thing to consider about side characters is however much we like them that most actors and actresses won't, for obvious reasons, commit to 8 or so seasons of cameos or one or two episodes a season. You got two big guns for Westworld because they're probably not doing much but Hopkins and Harris are in every episode.


I’m not sure that I agree. While Domon isn’t the most important character, Egeanin is. And they may want to keep Domon for the Egeanin arc. 
 

it will be interesting to see what they do. But I do be thinkin’ we won’t be seein’ the old Captain in season one. 

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Part of the reason people are attached to Domon is he was rattling around the outside of the story since EotW. If he's in the show at all, it won't be until season 4 probably, in which case why have a character named the same, who non-readers won't know or care about? I like some of the side characters too but based on feasability, monetary and otherwise as well as expanding Logain, Elaida etc., you can't have everyone.

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5 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

Part of the reason people are attached to Domon is he was rattling around the outside of the story since EotW. If he's in the show at all, it won't be until season 4 probably, in which case why have a character named the same, who non-readers won't know or care about? I like some of the side characters too but based on feasability, monetary and otherwise as well as expanding Logain, Elaida etc., you can't have everyone.


Could be a situation where you give a no name a role as the ship’s captain who takes Rand and Mat aboard in season one and then, if he makes an impression, you bring him back as Domon the following season. 

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That could work but everyone needs to prepare themselves for side characters we think are essential to various plot elements being left on the cutting room floor. Like for me in LOTR, they left out Bombadil which still annoys me even though I know and accept why they did it.

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2 hours ago, mistborn82 said:

That could work but everyone needs to prepare themselves for side characters we think are essential to various plot elements being left on the cutting room floor. Like for me in LOTR, they left out Bombadil which still annoys me even though I know and accept why they did it.


That’s true. 
I think Brigitte will be cut. I suspect there will be some amalgamation and “red-shirting” of Aes Sedai, kin, Wise Ones, innkeepers, etc. 

 

As I’ve been going through my re-read though, I find myself thinking that they will sacrifice fewer plot points than we think. Even the stuff we love to hate (Faile’s kidnapping, for example) while it seems to go on forever in the books can probably be depicted in the course of a few scenes interspersed over 3 or 4 episodes. 
 

If you keep the broad strokes of the plot the same, you still have room for “secondary” characters like Domon, Luca, Sulin, etc. In some cases, I think you’ll see these characters actually get elevated. (Two or theee wise ones standing in for multiple people). 
 

Right now, I’m just dying for a teaser or something!!!

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I disagree with Egeanin's importance and feel like, of any of the major side-characters whose stories can be cut, hers tops the list, but we've had that discussion before, elsewhere.  It's just a lot of stories to be told in-parallel, when we're already splitting up the main cast and telling all their individual stories, and cutting back and forth between them.

 

Birgitte, I think, shouldn't really be cut, she's just too important to Elayne and Nynaeve's character development and for exposition regarding the Heroes and Tel'aran'Rhiod.  And she doesn't have an independent story arc the way Egeanin, Morgase, Androl, etc., have, so you don't have to worry about too many parallel stories going on at once and muddying the waters.

 

In fact, I think that's probably the best rubric for guessing who's roles will be cut.  Are you not among the Main 8, the five Emond's Fielders and the Three?  Do you have an independent story arc that only sometimes becomes relevant to the Main 8, complete with your own POVs?  There's a decent chance you'll be cut.  Do you lack any POVs, and have no independent story whatsoever?  You have a better chance of sticking around, possibly elevated, though you may find yourself replaced or combined with someone else in a similar situation (storywise).

Edited by Thrasymachus
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Before including birgitte, they need to figure out a way to at least hint at how Moghedien ripped a hero of the horn out of TAR because in the books it's just because Moggy knows stuff. She gets fought to a draw with Nyneave, gets collared, is basically inept but does one thing right.

Edited by mistborn82
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Hint at what Moghedien...what?  I think you left out a word.

 

One of the things that I have come to appreciate is that the books deconstruct the Forsaken from these big, bad scary monsters of myth and legend, and showing that, for the most part, they're just people.  And not particularly competent people at that.  Many of them joined the Shadow because they were incompetent, or at least, not nearly as competent as they believed themselves to be and wanted everybody else to acknowledge.  Moggy was an investment advisor who joined the Shadow so she wouldn't have to face the music for all the fraud and incompetent advice she doled out.  Asmodean was basically Kanye, if you gave him the power to wipe out his competition and any critics he didn't like.  Lanfear was arm candy who thought she deserved credit for the accomplishments of those she clung to.  Many of the Forsaken joined the Shadow out of petty jealousy. 

 

Far from people to be feared, the books, at least while Jordan was writing them, progressively demonstrate the Forsaken to be the kind of people who are not to be feared, so much as they ought to be pitied and scorned.  Their danger comes from the fact that they can wield more of the One Power than most 3rd Age channellers by a wide margin due to the effects of culling out the channelling ability for 3000 years, and because they have the support of the Dark One.  Pretty much every one of the good guys is smarter, more resourceful, more determined, braver and more reliable than any one of the bad guys, barring perhaps Ishamael, who I reckon is also overrated, in spite of his much greater accomplishments in service to the Shadow.

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I don't think cutting Birgitte would be a good idea. I get where you are coming from with Moghedien coming off as inept throughout many of her sequences in the story particularly after the defeat you referenced, however I can't see that as a good enough reason to cut Birgitte if that's what you meant?

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6 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

Hint at what Moghedien...what?  I think you left out a word.

 

One of the things that I have come to appreciate is that the books deconstruct the Forsaken from these big, bad scary monsters of myth and legend, and showing that, for the most part, they're just people.  And not particularly competent people at that.  Many of them joined the Shadow because they were incompetent, or at least, not nearly as competent as they believed themselves to be and wanted everybody else to acknowledge.  Moggy was an investment advisor who joined the Shadow so she wouldn't have to face the music for all the fraud and incompetent advice she doled out.  Asmodean was basically Kanye, if you gave him the power to wipe out his competition and any critics he didn't like.  Lanfear was arm candy who thought she deserved credit for the accomplishments of those she clung to.  Many of the Forsaken joined the Shadow out of petty jealousy. 

 

Far from people to be feared, the books, at least while Jordan was writing them, progressively demonstrate the Forsaken to be the kind of people who are not to be feared, so much as they ought to be pitied and scorned.  Their danger comes from the fact that they can wield more of the One Power than most 3rd Age channellers by a wide margin due to the effects of culling out the channelling ability for 3000 years, and because they have the support of the Dark One.  Pretty much every one of the good guys is smarter, more resourceful, more determined, braver and more reliable than any one of the bad guys, barring perhaps Ishamael, who I reckon is also overrated, in spite of his much greater accomplishments in service to the Shadow.

Yes to this, I enjoy this audience and character ignorance to knowledge and understanding arc in regards to the powers of the Shadow and the Shadow wrought. The Forsaken literally start out as bedtime monster stories to get children who are misbehaving to mind their manners during the introduction of TEOTW. Of course we come to learn and understand that while what they have can and will do is abhorrent and unforgivable they are not the monsters many seem to think they are even when they think it of themselves. 

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16 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

In fact, I think that's probably the best rubric for guessing who's roles will be cut.  Are you not among the Main 8, the five Emond's Fielders and the Three?  Do you have an independent story arc that only sometimes becomes relevant to the Main 8, complete with your own POVs?  There's a decent chance you'll be cut.  Do you lack any POVs, and have no independent story whatsoever?  You have a better chance of sticking around, possibly elevated, though you may find yourself replaced or combined with someone else in a similar situation (storywise).

 

I get where you're coming from. But what if the "independent arcs" of characters like Egeanin, Andros, etc. are limited to exposition and instances where they are a direct part of something happening to one of the "Great 8"?

 

56 minutes ago, Dovie'andi se tovya sagain said:

I don't think cutting Birgitte would be a good idea. 

 

I love Birgitte. She's one of my favorite characters. My concern is that her complicated backstory will not translate. But I hope I'm wrong.

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I would say that if these secondary character independent story arcs are only really good for exposition, then there's a good chance they'll be axed.  There's other ways to exposit, and not all the exposition we get in the books is all that necessary.  Carridin, for example, mostly just gives us an inside look at the Darkfriends.  I'd bet dollars to donuts that he'll be cut.  We don't really need him.  Domon, in his PoVs in the Great Hunt, and Egeanin later on, mostly just give us a closer/inside look at the Seanchan.  Again, not really needed.

 

To the degree that any of these characters are essential for the growth or development of the Main 8, they may be kept in some form or other.  Gawyn, Galad, Cadsuane and Suian, for example.  Egeanin could fit in here, but her contribution to anybody's development is rather easy to cut out or move to another character; her role with Nynaeve in the search for the Sad Bracelets where Nynaeve learns to like and respect a putative enemy isn't really necessary, because the Seanchan didn't do anything to Nynaeve directly, it was Egwene they enslaved and captured.  Her role with Mat in helping him woo Tuon could be entirely replaced by Selucia or even Mistress Anan.  Her role in helping Egwene in getting over her disgust with the Seanchan in the end is also completely out-of-the-blue and doesn't really go anywhere or have time to.

 

Birgitte, on the other hand, is far less important for her exposition about the nature of the Heroes or Tel'aran'Rhiod or even her own storied past than she is for pushing Nynaeve and Elayne to develop and grow.  And she doesn't have an independent story arc, where she's out doing things on her own.  What we learn of her story is what Elayne, Nynaeve and Mat learn of her story.  So she can stay, because she doesn't impose that big burden of having to set up and tell a whole independent story that has to be edited in alongside the stories of the "real" main characters.  To keep Egeanin, or Carradin, would be to elevate them to "main character" status in those episodes in which their independent stories appear.  And frankly, there are plenty of main characters to have to deal with.

 

I don't think they'll cut Androl mostly due to his being Sanderson's creature, and his Deus ex machina gateways being used to great effect in the Last Battle, but that's a long way from now, and they might do it anyway, and roll him together with Logain.  Whatever they do with Androl, they'll likely do with Pevara and Gabrielle.

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45 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

 Her role with Mat in helping him woo Tuon could be entirely replaced by Selucia or even Mistress Anan. 

 

This is the place where I disagree the most. Egeanin is a vehicle for demonstrating just how important Tuon is. The scene where Tuon dresses Egeanin down and re-names her Leilwin Shipless is crucial.

 

Tuon isn't just some noble. She's not just of the Blood. And we really don't understand just how powerful she is until she takes Egeanin - a person we've come to understand (though not really see) is a hard, no-nonsense, ass kicker and absolutely destroys her. And Egeanin just takes it

 

Sure they can find other ways to get this point across. But I'm not sure there is a better way to demonstrate Tuon's authority than what Jordan wrote. 

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But, as you admit, she's not a vital vehicle for demonstrating that Tuon's as important as she is.  There are a multitude of other ways to communicate that to the audience, that don't come with the baggage of having to intersperse her independent story scenes  in-between the scenes that are directly about the main characters.

 

It's not about what's better or worse than what Jordan wrote, it's about what will work, or not work, in adapting what Jordan wrote to TV.  Stories and the characters that anchor them will have to be cut, condensed and re-ordered.  The stories and characters that are most at risk are the ones that aren't directly relevant to the stories that must be told.  The world-building intricacies of the Seanchan hierarchy aren't among those.

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3 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

But, as you admit, she's not a vital vehicle for demonstrating that Tuon's as important as she is.  There are a multitude of other ways to communicate that to the audience, that don't come with the baggage of having to intersperse her independent story scenes  in-between the scenes that are directly about the main characters.

 

It's not about what's better or worse than what Jordan wrote, it's about what will work, or not work, in adapting what Jordan wrote to TV.  Stories and the characters that anchor them will have to be cut, condensed and re-ordered.  The stories and characters that are most at risk are the ones that aren't directly relevant to the stories that must be told.  The world-building intricacies of the Seanchan hierarchy aren't among those.


I enjoy your thoughtful takes. Time will tell, I suppose. Maybe we will get a teaser with Season 2 of “The Boys” releasing 9/4. 

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That would be welcome indeed.  I wouldn't hold my breath, though.  My gut says we're looking at around Christmas-time for our first trailer and announcements for the air dates.  Which will probably be late spring or early summer of 2021.

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Greetings folks, enjoyable read on Bayle. 

 

Personally, I hope the character is retained for both the distinctive Illianer flair and also the sense of proportion he is able to provide for the evolution of the EF5.

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  • 1 month later...
On 8/11/2020 at 5:22 PM, Thrasymachus said:

Egeanin later on, mostly just give us a closer/inside look at the Seanchan.  Again, not really needed.

 

Why do you think we do not need a closer look at the Seanchan? I think understanding their culture is very important. They have a tremendous impact on the story.

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I didn't say they were unimportant, but that there's a time and place for "humanizing" them, versus leaving them as a looming, mysterious threat.  That process of revealing the character of the Seanchan has to be properly paced, so the Seanchan can play their appropriate role in the story.  Pacing and development of cultures/characters is markedly different for TV shows versus movies versus literature.  Egeanin's a great character in the books, right up until she's discarded by Egwene.  Indeed, I would have liked to see what became of her after the Last Battle, though I'm not sure whether she and Bayle survived. 

 

But in a TV show, there's simply not room for the 148 PoV characters and 2000+ named characters, and the inclusion of Egeanin dictates a pace for the development of Seanchan humanity that would deflate their threat and mystery too soon.  And every major plot point she contributes to can either be done by another already established character or cut entirely, for example, the Sad Bracelets, which can be entirely replaced by Callandor itself.

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"It can be learned?" has to be uttered by a Seanchan at some point.  Not a noble nor a sul'dam.  I see no reason for Egeanin to lose that role.

 

Tension as to whether or not the Seanchan will cede primacy to the Dragon Reborn and fight against the literal forces of evil can be effectively maintained up until TG.

 

Inclusion of 148 points of view has not been suggested by anyone that I've seen.  Not sure how many we'll get nor how difficult it would be do for any particular character.

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