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Dagon Thyne

So are they just going straight Asian with the borderlanders?

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KiWhere's the Malkeri being officially made Korean, with Lan' casting choice, does this mean the other border Landers are going to start being Asian as well.  It would make sense with the Shienarsns, since they are based on Japanese culture anyway, with samurai like armor katana-like longswords, and top Knots, but what about the other borderlander nations?

 

 

I'm pretty sure they're going to go with either Romani or Indian for Saldeans, given their description as darker-skinned often with largish prominent noses, which is very common among both those people's.

 

But I don't remember much about the other borderlanders descriptions of culture or ethnicity wise.   

 

The only thing you know about candor early on is that their women where trousers a lot like birgette's, but I don't remember much about that accent or ethnicity that was mentioned, even after they began being more prominent in the series at the end, and it's the same with Arafel.

 

Leschi norns are going to be easy to cast.  They can literally just copy and paste the cast of The last samurai minus Tom Cruise.  Ken Watanabe would make a great Agelmar.  

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I think they're going for actors who can play the part necessary, over choosing any particular real-world race to be strictly correlated to Randland nationalities.  For one thing, Jordan spends far more time describing dress and hairstyle than facial features or skin color.  For another, even when he does describe skin color and facial features, he uses expressive language that is vague enough that different people can get different ideas.  More importantly, the races that Jordan does describe don't have real-world counterparts.  They're a mishmash of various cultures and races, in configurations that don't have real-world counterparts.

 

And I think that as fans, the expectation that they'll maintain some kind of racial consistency in casting does immense harm.  Insofar as the producers try to honor those expectations, they hamstring themselves when choosing from the pool of available actors.  And insofar as the fans harbour such expectations, they make room for ridiculous arguments about racial purity and for outright racism to find a "safe space" in the fandom, as we've already seen in the exhausting debates on the subject. 

 

It doesn't really matter if, for example, they cast an Italian actress for Faile, or a Romani, or an Indian or a Mongolian or a Korean or any other nationality.  What matters is that they cast an actress that can portray a childish runaway aristocrat, and all the character growth from there that Faile experiences.  And if they do cast, say, an Italian actress to play Faile, nothing prevents them from casting a Korean, a Cantonese or even an English actor as Davram.  Appearance matters, but race doesn't.  And appearance matters far less than acting ability, costuming and makeup, and writing, for making the portrayals of the various characters believable.

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On 6/5/2020 at 10:12 AM, Thrasymachus said:

More importantly, the races that Jordan does describe don't have real-world counterparts.  They're a mishmash of various cultures and races, in configurations that don't have real-world counterparts.

 

That's a thing that Jordan does brilliantly. I love the way the Aiel resemble the biblical hebrews, and it could work with the . I've seen a lot of fan art as Lan with a vague Japanese appearance, and I'd be down with an Asian Faile. 

 

I really wonder what they are going to do with the Seanchan. If they commit one ethnicity to playing them those people are probably going to get mad.

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The sunshine are definitely multiracial because there are people's based on the native Americans such as some of the servants there are also darker skin such as Tuon and there are plenty of white people and all of them speaking a Texas accent  (according to Robert Jordan) which is hilarious.

 

 

But many of the Westland people's have a lot of description of their physical.  The Tearans for example obviously Spanish in both culture and ethnicity they are described as Olive skinned and have a clear medieval Spanish culture, with their proficiency in raising horses  growing olives, and making wines, especially their treatments of lowborn people.  Spanish Lords and Ladies were very loose when it came to protections of the common people, who had no rights and it was completely acceptable for a lord to rape a common girl which very clearly the case in Tear.   

 

 

 

But then there's the Aiel, who are basically supposed to be a Slovak people accent and hair color wise, but with darker skin, imagine if everyone in the middle East had blonde hair and blue eyes, but the same skin tone.    So they are less obvious race wise.  

 

 

 

Really the only ones who were completely based on one single people are the tearans, Andorans, and Cairhiens, who are Spanish English and French respectively, though the endurance also have some Irish and Welsh thrown in.  Western and door is Irish and I believe the two rivers is Welsh (based on the distinct accent they're supposed to have plus their proficiency with a longbow which was created by the Welsh).  

 

This is also why I don't really see any issue with having black and mixed race people playing the two rivers folks or other Andorans, since there was always a good number of black people in both Britain.

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Aiel are pale skinned when not suntanned and RJ said that they look Irish here's the quote

 

ROBERT JORDAN

He made the Aiel look Irish because he thought it was kind of funny. He doesn't like the fact that hardened desert warriors are always described as looking a certain way, so he used the opposite description.

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On 6/5/2020 at 1:12 PM, Thrasymachus said:

 

Quote

And I think that as fans, the expectation that they'll maintain some kind of racial consistency in casting does immense harm.  Insofar as the producers try to honor those expectations, they hamstring themselves when choosing from the pool of available actors.  And insofar as the fans harbour such expectations, they make room for ridiculous arguments about racial purity and for outright racism to find a "safe space" in the fandom, as we've already seen in the exhausting debates on the subject. 

 

Cheers!! Well said. Thank you!

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15 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

On the assumption that Min is introduced in Fal Dara, instead of Baerlon, of course.

 

I don't know why I think this, but isn't Min actually from Saldaea? It's just she was raised by her aunts in Baerlon. Am I just making that up in my head?

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1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

I don't know why I think this, but isn't Min actually from Saldaea? It's just she was raised by her aunts in Baerlon. Am I just making that up in my head?

AFAIK, that's just in your head. 
Everything I've looked up just says that she was born outside Baerlon, her mother died in childbirth, and her father died in a mining accident before being raised by her "aunts". So even if she was born in Andor, there's no reason her parents couldn't be from other areas.

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1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

AFAIK, that's just in your head.


I keep telling Lews Therin to shut his bloody mouth. 

 

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After Lan, the next for-sure Borderlander characters to appear would be Ingtar and Agelmar.  And their casting hasn't been announced yet, afaik.

 

I still think we are likely to see less race-based casting than some "fans" obviously prefer.  Jordan's racial characteristics are a hodge-podge that don't often occur in our current world.  Sticking to a strict, Borderlander = Asians theme is gonna make casting Bashere, for instance, with his thick mustaches, rather difficult.  I think we're bound to see a lot of mixed-race actors, as well as some which defy certain expectations.  And I think in general, we're gonna see a lot of make-up work and maybe even minor prosthetics to create a more racially homogenous appearance for actors with more diverse racial backgrounds, where necessary.

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13 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

After Lan, the next for-sure Borderlander characters to appear would be Ingtar and Agelmar.  And their casting hasn't been announced yet, afaik.

 

I still think we are likely to see less race-based casting than some "fans" obviously prefer.  Jordan's racial characteristics are a hodge-podge that don't often occur in our current world.  Sticking to a strict, Borderlander = Asians theme is gonna make casting Bashere, for instance, with his thick mustaches, rather difficult.  I think we're bound to see a lot of mixed-race actors, as well as some which defy certain expectations.  And I think in general, we're gonna see a lot of make-up work and maybe even minor prosthetics to create a more racially homogenous appearance for actors with more diverse racial backgrounds, where necessary.

 

So long as the creative people are faithful in adapting the particulars of Jordan's cultures, I don't give a fig what races are cast, or what the actors skin looks like.

 

As you say, makeup as well as costume and lighting can account for any homogeneity that's necessary.

 

What matters to me as a fan is that they get ji'e'toh right. That the various ajahs feel distinct. That they portray the borderlanders' grim determination and chivalric ideals and contrast it with the sly maneuvering of the Cairhienen. Make the cultures feel as real on the screen as Jordan does on the page, that's what I want.  

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On 9/10/2020 at 5:54 PM, Thrasymachus said:

After Lan, the next for-sure Borderlander characters to appear would be Ingtar and Agelmar.  And their casting hasn't been announced yet, afaik.

 

I still think we are likely to see less race-based casting than some "fans" obviously prefer.  Jordan's racial characteristics are a hodge-podge that don't often occur in our current world.  Sticking to a strict, Borderlander = Asians theme is gonna make casting Bashere, for instance, with his thick mustaches, rather difficult.  I think we're bound to see a lot of mixed-race actors, as well as some which defy certain expectations.  And I think in general, we're gonna see a lot of make-up work and maybe even minor prosthetics to create a more racially homogenous appearance for actors with more diverse racial backgrounds, where necessary.

Why do people think only of east Asia. Turks, Persian, Kurds, Caucasus origins all are known for big noses and prominent facial hair.  Yes you get blue eyes red hair and epicanthic eyefolds. And if you been in central asia and the caucasus , so many civilazations and have swept through that any crowd is really diverse in appearance. Saldea with its horse culture fit nicely with the steppe identity, or equally the Mughals civization

 

Jordan did like to mix and match cultures.  Shienar with it Japanese esthetics but the armor descriptions are definitely european heavy plate armor.  The Seanchan armor descriptions are closer to japanese lacquered armor practices.

 

The Aiel are interesting, native American clans, Zulu impi fighting styles, an bushido honor code and humor that is close to native Americans mocking white people

 

Tear likes  the iberian look but the mesopotamian cultures also traditionally liked to oil their hair and beards. there is no obligation to keep real world peoples and cultures aligned with what happens in Jordan's world.

 

the Ghealden, Murandy, Amadicia seem to be collectively modeled on the fractious German principalities 

Venice seems to show up every where in politics, festival practices etc. 

 

What I enjoyed was how Jorden made all these cultural aspects work in the civilizations and cultures he created  

 

 

 

 

 

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Because there's other ethnic descriptors for those distinct ethnic groups.  "Asian" typically refers to people east of India and north of the Philippines, who have the classical "chinese" phenotype; typically short, with dark hair and dark, slanted eyes, who don't typically have robust amounts of facial hair.  Equivocating between "Asian" as an ethnic label and "Asian" as a geographical description doesn't help clarify anything.  Asia's a big place.  Asians (as an ethnical descriptor) don't even make up half the people living there.

Edited by Thrasymachus

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1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

Because there's other ethnic descriptors for those distinct ethnic groups.  "Asian" typically refers to people west of India and north of the Philippines, who have the classical "chinese" phenotype; typically short, with dark hair and dark, slanted eyes, who don't typically have robust amounts of facial hair.  Equivocating between "Asian" as an ethnic label and "Asian" as a geographical description doesn't help clarify anything.  Asia's a big place.  Asians (as an ethnical descriptor) don't even make up half the people living there.

The peoples of SW Asia, India, Pakistan, Iran etc are actually more closely related to Caucasians then to those of NE Asia China, Japan, Korea etc descent.

*I take it you meant East of India

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On 6/5/2020 at 1:12 PM, Thrasymachus said:

For another, even when he does describe skin color and facial features, he uses expressive language that is vague enough that different people can get different ideas.

 

Sometimes, but often not. "As fair as any Andoran" is pretty plain, as is a bold nose, olive skinned, dark skinned, tilted eyes, etc. He was very specific about some, but vague about others.

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