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Ogier Gardeners


Jsbrads2
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So it appears when the longing occurred in Seanchan, the Ogier didn’t find a Stedding, they collapsed? And the empress? From their generation cared for the Ogier and whomever survived the longing, became harsher and joined the army/guards. Am I missing anything? Any of this wrong?

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37 minutes ago, Jsbrads2 said:

So it appears when the longing occurred in Seanchan, the Ogier didn’t find a Stedding, they collapsed? And the empress? From their generation cared for the Ogier and whomever survived the longing, became harsher and joined the army/guards. Am I missing anything? Any of this wrong?


There is an old Thread on here from 2012 titled “Seanchan Ogier” got no idea how to link to that thread, maybe the Mods can help here, I actually found it by Googling Seanchan Ogier.  A lot of your questions can be found on that Thread. But the Empire didn’t rise until 2000 odd years after the Breaking, far to late for the Ogier if they had suffered the longing.

There is a quote from Robert Jordan on the thread explaining that there are a lot more Stedding in Seanchan and they never suffered the longing. Which suggests there are probably a lot more Ogier in Seanchan then the “Westlands”. There is no real evidence as to why the Ogier serve the Impress, just that they are not Property unlike other Deathguards. 


 

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As for why the Ogier serve the Empire, recall that Ogier also served in the Age of Legends as a sort of police force.  And while the Ogier we meet have a clear aversion to violence and cruelty of any sort, they are also known as fierce and implacable fighters once roused.  I would suggest they have a racial bias predisposing them to hate conflict of any sort.  Loial continually becomes upset, even overwrought, when his friends merely argue, let alone fight, and typically advises to avoid confrontations between allies which could lead to violence.  Insofar as the Empire represents stability and order, they may be strongly predisposed to volunteer to serve the Empire.

 

Alternatively, the channelers who ruled Seandar prior to the arrival of the Empire may well have had a history of trying to dominate and enslave the Ogier.  And the Empire, coming from a culture which honors and respects the Ogier, would naturally have freed them upon their arrival and the development and deployment of the a'dam.  The Seanchan Ogier may serve the Empire out of a sense of honor and gratitude for their liberation.

Edited by Thrasymachus
Grammar coreection
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3 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

As for why the Ogier serve the Empire, recall that Ogier also served in the Age of Legends as a sort of police force.  And while the Ogier we meet have a clear aversion to violence and cruelty of any sort, they are also known as fierce and implacable fighters once roused.  I would suggest they have a racial bias predisposing them to hate conflict of any sort.  Loial continually becomes upset, even overwrought, when his friends merely argue, let alone fight, and typically advises to avoid confrontations between allies which could lead to violence.  Insofar as the Empire represents stability and order, they may be strongly predisposed to volunteer to serve the Empire.

 

Alternatively, the channelers who rules Seandar prior to the arrival of the Empire may well have had a history of trying to dominate and enslave the Ogier.  And the Empire, coming from a culture which honors and respects the Ogier, would naturally have freed them upon their arrival and the development and deployment of the a'dam.  The Seanchan Ogier may serve the Empire out of a sense of honor and gratitude for their liberation.

You may have some good points there, i think the Ogier would definitely prefer the Empire over the dozens of petty Kingdoms, basically ruled by “Aes Sedai,” either openly or behind the scenes. Invasions of Steddings was probably common place by Armies sent by Rulers and the Seanchan Ogier probably become more militant in defence, due to need. Massacres may have even occurred.
I think there could be little doubt that the Empire has made an agreement with the Ogier to ensure the safety and security of the Steddings in return for the service of the Gardeners. 
lets not forget that 3000 odd years seperate the 2 Ogier groups and that the “Westland” Ogier have been changed by the longing, they have spent most of those 3000 years in peace in there Steddings and this may have made them less likely to do violence. The Seanchan Ogier may not have had that same luxury and may have gone the other way, become more harder over time, less patient, quicker to anger.

 

Edited by Harldin
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Westland Ogier did participate in the Trolloc Wars, so their time after the Breaking wasn't wholly unbroken by violence.  It seems, though, that they declined to get involved in human political conflicts, and their steddings were by and large remote enough, and their value as crafstmen great enough, to afford them that political independence.  Ogier of the Westlands also benefited from the Ways, before they were corrupted.  Only Ogier could reliably navigate them, as their Guidings were only written in Ogier script, and they would have enabled a quick retreat to a refuge potentially on the other side of the continent, should human political conflict encroach upon them.  Seanchan Ogier, while they benefited from more abundant steddings, and so never developed the Longing, never had the Ways.  They could be trapped in their steddings and denied escape in ways the Westlands Ogier were largely immune to.

 

It would be interesting to know whether the Seanchan Ogier also have access to, or even know about, the Book of Translation.  The artifact revealed by Loial's mother, which it seems possesses the ability to remove the Ogier from this world and move them to another.  It's possible that Seanchan Ogier have been cut off from seemingly important and defining aspects of their heritage and future.

 

Imagine two thousand years under the thumb of ruthless female channelers (I won't call them Aes Sedai without an established, institutional heritage that traces itself back to Age of Legends Aes Sedai.  Say what you will about the White Tower, it at least has that.) You're free from their power while in your home, but you're not free from the swords and fire their minions can bring in there.  And there are many more of them than there are of you, and they are far more willing to kill and torture the innocent and helpless than you can comprehend.  All while you are cut off from the one artifact that defines and explains your otherness, and offers promise of a future.  Now, you have no future, and you're just a giant hairy freak, instead of a guest and friend.

 

 

After two thousand years of this, you encounter some humans who know of your kind and treat you with the respect that deep down, you've always known was right.  Who tell stories about Ogier that would seem wonderous and terrible to you.  That they suffer from the Longing, but that they have Ways they can travel, and that they are highly respected and sought after as masons, and for their gift of treesinging.  And maybe some of those humans have even learned of the Book of Translation from an Ogier friend, what would be a fantastic myth for the Seanchan Ogier, by this time. 

 

And these humans go on to capture and subdue those female channelers who've always tormented, enslaved and dominated you and your kind, and press on to eliminate all the Shadowspawn that live on that continent.  If I were an Ogier, I'd be pretty impressed by those guys.  I might even join up to help out, to sate my sense of justice and honor.

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3 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

Westland Ogier did participate in the Trolloc Wars, so their time after the Breaking wasn't wholly unbroken by violence.  It seems, though, that they declined to get involved in human political conflicts, and their steddings were by and large remote enough, and their value as crafstmen great enough, to afford them that political independence.  Ogier of the Westlands also benefited from the Ways, before they were corrupted.  Only Ogier could reliably navigate them, as their Guidings were only written in Ogier script, and they would have enabled a quick retreat to a refuge potentially on the other side of the continent, should human political conflict encroach upon them.  Seanchan Ogier, while they benefited from more abundant steddings, and so never developed the Longing, never had the Ways.  They could be trapped in their steddings and denied escape in ways the Westlands Ogier were largely immune to.

 

It would be interesting to know whether the Seanchan Ogier also have access to, or even know about, the Book of Translation.  The artifact revealed by Loial's mother, which it seems possesses the ability to remove the Ogier from this world and move them to another.  It's possible that Seanchan Ogier have been cut off from seemingly important and defining aspects of their heritage and future.

 

Imagine two thousand years under the thumb of ruthless female channelers (I won't call them Aes Sedai without an established, institutional heritage that traces itself back to Age of Legends Aes Sedai.  Say what you will about the White Tower, it at least has that.) You're free from their power while in your home, but you're not free from the swords and fire their minions can bring in there.  And there are many more of them than there are of you, and they are far more willing to kill and torture the innocent and helpless than you can comprehend.  All while you are cut off from the one artifact that defines and explains your otherness, and offers promise of a future.  Now, you have no future, and you're just a giant hairy freak, instead of a guest and friend.

 

 

After two thousand years of this, you encounter some humans who know of your kind and treat you with the respect that deep down, you've always known was right.  Who tell stories about Ogier that would seem wonderous and terrible to you.  That they suffer from the Longing, but that they have Ways they can travel, and that they are highly respected and sought after as masons, and for their gift of treesinging.  And maybe some of those humans have even learned of the Book of Translation from an Ogier friend, what would be a fantastic myth for the Seanchan Ogier, by this time. 

 

And these humans go on to capture and subdue those female channelers who've always tormented, enslaved and dominated you and your kind, and press on to eliminate all the Shadowspawn that live on that continent.  If I were an Ogier, I'd be pretty impressed by those guys.  I might even join up to help out, to sate my sense of justice and honor.

I also have a WOT universe theory that Ogier stayed around until the end of the 7th Age, which ended between 6-10,000BC and all the myths and fables of things like Dragons, Ogres, Giants, Magical folk, people who could talk to Wolves, etc we have today comes from then.

The Giants of course were the Ogier and Goliath was the last of his kind.

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That's an interesting idea.  I don't know that we can extrapolate much beyond the First Age being our own Age.  When the Seventh Age becomes the First, though, I couldn't say.  The cosmology of the Wheel of Time is so vastly different to what we understand of our own cosmology, that it's beyond difficult to reconcile the two.  The only way I can think to do it, while remaining faithful to the observations that ground our current cosmology, would be that the Seven Ages span the length of the entire age of a Universe, from Big Bang to Heat Death.  Quantum cosmology suggests that, in the deep future, when all the matter in the universe has been absorbed by black holes, and all the black holes have evaporated away into photons, and all the photons have been redshifted due to space's expansion to the point they are drowned out by quantum fluctuations, that those same fluctuations will be able to grow large enough that one of them can erupt into a new Big Bang, complete with its own new matter and energy and spacetime.  If this new universe contains an imprint of the universe that birthed it, then the cyclical notion of eternally recurrent cosmology can be preserved.

 

Of course, that means the Seventh Age will be an Age of ultimate death and depletion, and will last for quadrillions of years, before the Wheel turns.

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RJ has said that the events of the books are the source for some of our myths and legends so what you suggest wouldn't work unless human civilization could somehow survive long enough to migrate to the new universe.

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The Ogier are leaving Randland any minute now, Loial only convinces them to wait until after the Last Battle. In a twinkle of the eye, all the Gardners will disappear, them never voting on their fate.

Perhaps, the Seanchan lands, lacking a White Tower... prior to Hawking’s son they used female channelers in battle. Hawking’s adam, changed the pattern of war allowing them to eventually get the upper hand, but not after many wars.

Based on the above: It would seem less likely that the post-Breaking Ogier would associate with humans. What would be the purpose of invading a Stedding? Men volunteer to join armies. How many men would it cost to trap an Ogier? Why would he fight for you?

In fact it is more likely that post-Breaking Randland Ogier were closer to humans than Seanchanian Ogier the Seanchanian humans. The Ogier needed activity, purpose, support to survive the Longing. Seanchanian Ogier didn’t need anything.

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1 hour ago, Jsbrads2 said:

The Ogier are leaving Randland any minute now, Loial only convinces them to wait until after the Last Battle. In a twinkle of the eye, all the Gardners will disappear, them never voting on their fate.

Perhaps, the Seanchan lands, lacking a White Tower... prior to Hawking’s son they used female channelers in battle. Hawking’s adam, changed the pattern of war allowing them to eventually get the upper hand, but not after many wars.

Based on the above: It would seem less likely that the post-Breaking Ogier would associate with humans. What would be the purpose of invading a Stedding? Men volunteer to join armies. How many men would it cost to trap an Ogier? Why would he fight for you?

In fact it is more likely that post-Breaking Randland Ogier were closer to humans than Seanchanian Ogier the Seanchanian humans. The Ogier needed activity, purpose, support to survive the Longing. Seanchanian Ogier didn’t need anything.

The Ogier are leaving any year now would be more like it, at the pace they live at. They changed there mind once about leaving, they may just do so again, especially with the change of situation in the world and they may want to meet with the Ogier leadership from Seanchan before making the final decision, don’t forget that the first time the 2 Ogier groups had meet in 3000 years was at Merrilor, after the final battle, the locals would definitely want to talk to the Gardeners, may even have shown unseemly haste to do so. Knowing the Ogier they will probably hang around for another 20 years yet, they don’t do anything in a hurry.
Men volunteer to join Armies? Yea, join or hang, your choice, never heard of conscription? Especially in a pre Industrial or Medieval society.
There are plenty of reasons why a ruler may decide to attack a Stedding, racial hatred, shortage of land, a mad Ruler who believes he can tame Ogier, especially if they can grab very young Ogier, a war between Ogier and a local Ruler, remembering that there are a lot more Stedding in Seanchan, probably meaning there are a lot more Ogier and that will lead to a lot more interaction between the Races both good and bad. 
The world post breaking was one full of desperate hungry people, who would have had no compunction whatever to attacking a Stedding looking for food and a place of safety, and that would have lead to a lot of bad blood, there are probably Steddings in Seanchan where Humans are not allowed to set foot and the Ogier will have nothing to do with Humans and other Stedding that the Gardeners come from. 

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15 hours ago, Captainwilhelm96 said:

RJ has said that the events of the books are the source for some of our myths and legends so what you suggest wouldn't work unless human civilization could somehow survive long enough to migrate to the new universe.

It could if the new universe contained an imprint of the universe that birthed it, possibly through those cosmological elements that our current physical cosmology doesn't account for, such as souls and Tel'aran'rhiod.  

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14 hours ago, Jsbrads2 said:

The Ogier are leaving Randland any minute now, Loial only convinces them to wait until after the Last Battle. In a twinkle of the eye, all the Gardners will disappear, them never voting on their fate.

Perhaps, the Seanchan lands, lacking a White Tower... prior to Hawking’s son they used female channelers in battle. Hawking’s adam, changed the pattern of war allowing them to eventually get the upper hand, but not after many wars.

Based on the above: It would seem less likely that the post-Breaking Ogier would associate with humans. What would be the purpose of invading a Stedding? Men volunteer to join armies. How many men would it cost to trap an Ogier? Why would he fight for you?

In fact it is more likely that post-Breaking Randland Ogier were closer to humans than Seanchanian Ogier the Seanchanian humans. The Ogier needed activity, purpose, support to survive the Longing. Seanchanian Ogier didn’t need anything.

In truth, we don't know how the Book of Translation works.  It may transport all Ogier, and steddings, it may transport the steddings and everything in them, or just the Ogier in them, it may just transport the stedding in which it is opened.  In any event, opening the Book seems to be a last resort option for the Ogier, else they almost certainly would have opened it long since.  I doubt there will be a great hurry to open it now that the Last Battle's won, though.  They may still decide to open it, but it'll probably take 'em a couple more years to debate it.

 

As for why men would invade steddings.  For one, Seandar, prior to Luthair, was ruled by channelers.  Channelers who never swore the Oaths, and who have a tenuous, at best, heritage back to the original Aes Sedai.  Of course they used the Power in battle.  Seandar was also not unified prior to the Empire, so these channellers were warring and contesting with each other.  Steddings, being places where the One Power cannot be sensed or channelled directly, would represent a significant strategic gap in their rule that they would be eager to fill.  Particularly as steddings are much more common in Seandar than the Westlands.

 

For another, steddings are refuges from Shadowspawn.  Trollocs will not enter, without being driven, and Myrddral would need a good reason to drive them.  The more mindless versions of Shadowspawn would likely avoid them as well.  As they are more common in Seandar, men would have have a better chance to encounter them and almost as much reason to settle in them as the Ogier.  In the Westlands, their rarity and placement, mostly far from natural trade routes and remote from more natural places for men to settle would enable Ogier to settle them without much competition from men.  The one exception we know of being the one where Hawkwing was to build his capitol city.  And crucially, we don't really know how *big* that one is.  It may be rather small, just big enough to contain a well-planned Empirial administrative city with minimal room for merchants and private citizens, one still reliant on supply from Outside.  It's also far enough south that the need to build in a place of refuge from Shadowspawn is not that great.

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2 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

It could if the new universe contained an imprint of the universe that birthed it, possibly through those cosmological elements that our current physical cosmology doesn't account for, such as souls and Tel'aran'rhiod.  

From some of RJ's interviews in regards to the cyclical nature of time in his universe.. He was being quite literal.

From how I understand his cyclical timeline, this isn't the big bang followed by big-crunch onward for infinity.

It's similar to "time" starting 5000 years ago at the dawn of civilization and it goes forward 200,000 years before restarting.
Human evolution isn't much of a thing in his universe. Each age literally repeats itself albeit with minor/insignificant tweaks. 

So when the 3rd age happens again, a Rand al'Thor , probably with a different name, will be born upon the slopes of a Dragonmount, the source will be tainted again. until he locks the DO up again at the end, perhaps sparking the very creation myth of the novels.

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I wouldn't necessarily call them "minor" differences.  The analogy Jordan uses is that of comparing two patterned tapestries, first from a distance, and then up close.  From a distance, the two would look identical, while up close, the individual patterns and weaves could/would be starkly different.  And I don't recall him ever talking about the the transition between the Seventh and First Ages, or whether there was ever an Age with no people in it, or how to reconcile the physical cosmology as we currently understand it, i.e. Big Bang cosmology, with the eternally recurrent cosmology of the Wheel of Time.  Indeed, he was somewhat cagey about confirming that our time was supposed to be one of the previous Ages in the Wheel.

 

One of the strengths of Wheel of Time world-building is that there's plenty of gaps, mystery and vagueness to it to make room for a wide variety of "head-canon," while at the same time making enough connections and establishing enough of the mechanics by making use of them to drive the plot that engaging in speculative head-canon is almost required.  But it's very hard to reconcile the notion that the Third Age is some far-flung future of ours, while taking seriously the very good understandings we have of our cosmological (not to mention archeological, paleontological, and geological) history and likely futures and the radical difference with the understanding of cosmology in the Third Age.  There are enough gaps in our current scientific worldview that something very like the Wheel of Time cosmology could fit in those gaps.  But there's not a lot of room for it to, say, overturn the nebular theory for the formation of our solar system, or the accretion theory for the formation of our planet, nor the rough history of that event being about five billion years ago.  The Wheel of Time cosmology has to actually fit in the gaps of what we know, and not spill out to wipe away too much, or we have to suspend a great deal more disbelief to maintain the notion that the 3rd Age is our future.

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1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I wouldn't necessarily call them "minor" differences.  The analogy Jordan uses is that of comparing two patterned tapestries, first from a distance, and then up close.  From a distance, the two would look identical, while up close, the individual patterns and weaves could/would be starkly different.  And I don't recall him ever talking about the the transition between the Seventh and First Ages, or whether there was ever an Age with no people in it, or how to reconcile the physical cosmology as we currently understand it, i.e. Big Bang cosmology, with the eternally recurrent cosmology of the Wheel of Time.  Indeed, he was somewhat cagey about confirming that our time was supposed to be one of the previous Ages in the Wheel.

"Minor" is entirely subjective. It's Minor from the wheel's perspective. It's always the same soul of the Dragon, during the 3rd age. The name, face, genetics can all change. But It's always the Dragons soul.

Definitely check out Theorylands Interview database if you haven't already. I'm pretty sure RJ confirmed that his Universe is literally cyclical, and the transition from 1st to 7th age doesn't require a total-reboot of the universe with a big-bang-big-crunch model.

Here's the only things I could really dig up.
 

Quote

LAURA WILSON
What about this notion of time as a wheel? Is that your idea?

ROBERT JORDAN
No. It's not mine. It is from Hindu mythology that time is a wheel. But actually, most eastern cultures believed that time was circular. The Greeks gave us the great gift of believing that time was linear. And that's a great gift because if time is circular, if everything repeats in cycles, then change is impossible. No matter what you do, it's always going to come back to what is here. But if time is linear, then change is possible. But I wanted the circularity because I wanted, again, to go into the changes by distance. So, the myths and legends and a few of the stories that these people tell, well, some of them are based on our own current events, on the present. What they are doing is based on our myths and legends. So they are the source of our myths and legends, and we are the source of theirs.

 

Quote

SCOTTY1489

Is our earth a future or past turn of the wheel?

ROBERT JORDAN

Both. The characters in the books are the source of many of our myths and legends and we are the source of many of theirs. You can look two ways along a wheel.


Onto the main topic, I do wonder if Ogier aren't from the same, or similar realm of existence as the Snakes & Foxes. Given the nature of the Ways, and how the Fox & Snakes world is, it reminds me a LOT of the concept of the Feywild seen in a lot of other fantasy literature these days.

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Unrelated to the topic at hand. 
 

I recently joked the Lincoln-Kennedy coincidences may be evidence our world is a simulation and the random facts creator isn’t capable of functioning in a true random fashion (random numbers are hard to simulate and we haven’t figured out how to create them yet). Cycle of the ages may be a similar clue to that universe’s status as simulation or reality. 

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I have a possible theory, that Jordans 7th Age is the Age of the Fey* and that is where the Foxes, Snakes and Ogier come from as well as the Fey and things like Goblins, Centaurs and Minotaurs, And that they were all constructs from that Age and the Doorways and Portal Stones are actually Time Portals. 

The world was ruled by immensely powerful Channelers who ruled without any real morals, kept Raken that they would ride and reign death down from the sky and that is where the legend of Fire breathing Dragons comes from. They created all the different creatures of mythology as well as the Foxes, Snakes and Ogier.

 

Faery Folk* things like Elves, Fairies, Sprites etc.

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11 hours ago, Jsbrads2 said:

Unrelated to the topic at hand. 
 

I recently joked the Lincoln-Kennedy coincidences may be evidence our world is a simulation and the random facts creator isn’t capable of functioning in a true random fashion (random numbers are hard to simulate and we haven’t figured out how to create them yet). Cycle of the ages may be a similar clue to that universe’s status as simulation or reality. 

This article about Authors literally hearing and seeing their creations, 
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/apr/27/majority-of-authors-hear-their-characters-speak-finds-study

+ Aphantasia,
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-34039054
+ And it's Cousin,
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/people-cant-hear-thoughts-people-17709154
 

Are what make me wonder if we aren't in a Simulation.
The real question is... are both groups of people (those with, and without Aphantasia) real people, or is one group NPCs/Artificial AI?

Edited by SinisterDeath
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11 hours ago, Jsbrads2 said:

Unrelated to the topic at hand. 
 

I recently joked the Lincoln-Kennedy coincidences may be evidence our world is a simulation and the random facts creator isn’t capable of functioning in a true random fashion (random numbers are hard to simulate and we haven’t figured out how to create them yet). Cycle of the ages may be a similar clue to that universe’s status as simulation or reality. 

This article about Authors literally hearing and seeing their creations, 
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/apr/27/majority-of-authors-hear-their-characters-speak-finds-study

+ Aphantasia,
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-34039054
+ And it's Cousin,
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/people-cant-hear-thoughts-people-17709154
 

Are what make me wonder if we aren't in a Simulation.
The real question is... are both groups of people (those with, and without Aphantasia) real people, or is one group NPCs?

 

  

11 hours ago, Harldin said:

I have a possible theory, that Jordans 7th Age is the Age of the Fey* and that is where the Foxes, Snakes and Ogier come from as well as the Fey and things like Goblins, Centaurs and Minotaurs, And that they were all constructs from that Age and the Doorways and Portal Stones are actually Time Portals. 

The world was ruled by immensely powerful Channelers who ruled without any real morals, kept Raken that they would ride and reign death down from the sky and that is where the legend of Fire breathing Dragons comes from. They created all the different creatures of mythology as well as the Foxes, Snakes and Ogier.

 

Faery Folk* things like Elves, Fairies, Sprites etc.



That's entirely possible. We have no idea what age they came here.

Could have been the age of Legends. Could have been in an age long, long ago, creating the ancient legends similar to the ones you mention. Perhaps some left, and came back after the Age of Legends found them again.

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It should be noted, I don’t know who said this first, but it is the Aes Sedai who are elves, live for hundreds of years, use magic, separate from mankind, live in a beautiful city...

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3 hours ago, Jsbrads2 said:

It should be noted, I don’t know who said this first, but it is the Aes Sedai who are elves, live for hundreds of years, use magic, separate from mankind, live in a beautiful city...

I take it you are referring to the beings Tolkien called Elves in LOTR? When i was talking about Elves i was referring to the more traditional mythology of Elves, as very small magical beings of traditional Folklore, similar to Sprites, Fairies, Leprechauns etc. I am not aware of any mythology surrounding Tolkien type Elves, but i am certainly no expert in this area.

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One other thing is Jordan using the name Ogier for his Giants, how deliberate was using a name that is very close to the name of a very large creature of mythology, Ogre’s?

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5 hours ago, Harldin said:

One other thing is Jordan using the name Ogier for his Giants, how deliberate was using a name that is very close to the name of a very large creature of mythology, Ogre’s?

 

Hard to say, buut..
This road exists in Charleston, SC.image.thumb.png.b05d7cbad8be96b82c8c5873e0f51835.png

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32 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

Hard to say, buut..
This road exists in Charleston, SC.image.thumb.png.b05d7cbad8be96b82c8c5873e0f51835.png

If i remember correctly Rutledge was an Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah and Vanderhorst was a Seanchan Noble. 😂

 

yea i know a million Comedians out of work and you get me.

The question is though, was the road named after Ogier or were Ogier named after the road

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