Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Sign in to follow this  
Jsbrads2

Who are the real Aiel during Rand’s life?

Will the real Aiel please stand up?  

1 member has voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. Who are the real Aiel during Rand’s life?

    • The Aiel
      1
    • Tinkers
      0

  • Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.
  • Poll closed on 04/22/20 at 02:55 AM

Recommended Posts

If you go by what the Aiel use to be, then the Tinkers are the true Aiel.  The tinkers are the closest thing to the Jenn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good point, I disagree... because, the Aiel did not abandoned the tree of life.

The AoL Aiel started working for the AS, but they had a prior association with plants.

i believe, the Aiel were the gardeners of the Tree of Life from an age prior to the AoL, that is why when they left, they brought trees with them. As the Aiel were leaving, one of the AS warned them not to forget their way of leaf lifestyle, he seemed to indicate that was even more important than the Terangreal placed in their care.

The Tinkers abandoned the trees and they became just a group of hippies searching for a song that does not exist. They have no purpose.

The Aiel, have the tree of life as a purpose. The tree of life is needed for society to flourish properly. This part of the story and the Aiel returning to way of leaf was left out of the story to the story’s detriment. The Ariel’s purpose as police, is just as the strongest thug among other thugs, but oh by the way, we know the Seanchan are stronger, so that is a flawed path.

When the Aiel return to the way of the leaf, they can resume unlimited access to all of the lands of men where they can plant the trees which serve a dual purpose to civilize men and perpetuate a vital spiritual resource for mankind. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Aiel were about the way of the leaf, which the Aiel abandoned and the Tinkers kept. The Jenn tended to the tree of life, not the rest of the Aiel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True, but the way of the leaf in a vacuum has no purpose. I believe to be Aiel is to be guardians of the tree, and when the Aiel abandoned the way of the leaf they continued to serve the tree by protecting the tree and the jenn Aiel and they continued to support the Jenn Aiel in the collective commitment to the AS to transport Terangreal. That’s why the Aiel “today” kept the name and the Tinkers abandoned their name.

The Tinkers kept the quaint traditions while gutting their whole commitment. The Tinkers also abandoned their oath to AS, much like saying Ogier oathbreaker is oxymoronic, similarly the Aiel are super committed to keeping oaths. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Jenn" literally means True, so the Jenn Aiel, by definition, are the only "True" (or real) Aiel. However, this is a term that was applied to them later, by a people already perverted from their roots, so I would NOT use it as any conclusive proof one way or another. It does seem to suggest that the Wasteland Aiel acknowledge that they are not "true" Aiel, which defaults your question to the Tinkers being the "real" Aiel.

 

Regardless, let's explore some more...

 

If Rand's flashback memories serve any merit, then the Tinkers are closer to what the Aiel were in the AoL. They still adhere to the Way of the Leaf and seek the ancient Treesongs they used to know. The modern-day Aiel are the ones who were originally called the Lost Ones, and were required to veil their faces out of shame. The veiling became adopted into a cultural more, while the term Lost Ones was inverted and projected back at the Tinkers (likely out of spite for being cast out... i.e., "I'm rubber, you're glue").

 

It was only by luck (or perhaps the will of the Pattern) that the only surviving Chora tree happened to make it's way to Rhuidean. The Tuatha'an caravans had several saplings, but since they never found a safe place settle, the trees withered and died. Can't entirely blame them for that; they were still obeying their orders from the AS right up until the bitter end. Clinging to non-violence (The Way of the Leaf) proved to be their detriment, as they abandoned caravans and Ter'angreal to the numerous brigands and desparate survivors. The Aiel adapted to their harsh new world, and were able to defend their caravans and charges.

 

The order to transport and safeguard the Ter'angreal was the last task the AoL Aiel were given, but it's not who they were. Culturally, the wasteland Aiel bare almost no resemblance to their namesake aside from a few legacy terms (i.e., cadin'sor, etc). By contrast, the Tinkers are much more similar to the Aiel seen in Rand's vision, dancing and singing in the crop fields.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

What evidence do you have that the first Tinkers took trees with them? They emptied the wagons of Terangreal and trees before riding off. 

Edited by Jsbrads2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Effette is right, guarding the tree and such were tasks Aiel were given, but the Aiel were expected to follow the way of the leaf.  That is what it meant to be Aiel.  Until the Aiel basicly had almost no contact wit the Jenn at all, had the Jenn not made the Aiel visit them to be told they had to send clan chiefs to Rhudiean, the Aiel would of never had anything to do with the Jenn at all, it's the Jenn who maintained the tree.  Because the Aiel betrayed who they were, is why they are to face such a harsh punishment when the Dragon was reborn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/23/2020 at 10:32 PM, Jsbrads2 said:

What evidence do you have that the first Tinkers too trees with them? They emptied the wagons of Terangreal and trees before riding off. 

 

Inferred from Rand's ancestral memory. There was mention of numerous caravans lined up, each laden with artifacts and each with several Chora saplings strapped to the sides. This was all well before the schism.

 

We know the WotL forbids violence, and we know no Chora trees survived except for Avendesora, so we can infer that the Tinker-Aiel:

a) never found a place to plant them, and/or b) abandoned them.

 

By contrast, the wasteland-Aiel had abandoned the WotL, which presumably allowed them to defend the caravans long enough to reach Rhuidean. The Jenn are very likely the few wasteland-Aiel who never took up the veil; hence, the name. Still, it's not entirely known how far the Jenn deviated from their roots, so I question the validity of the term "True Aiel."

 

It is curious how the Jenn are always spoken of in present tense though: The Jenn live in Rhuidean, etc. This makes me think the Clan Chiefs are actually referring to the memories revealed in the glass ter'angreal. Memories are timeless; the event is in the past, but a memory is forever current.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who says the guardianship of the trees was something given to the Aiel?

only service to Aes Sedai was new to the Aiel.

Guardianship of the tree and the WotL are both part of who they are, but they aren’t two separate aspects of who the Aiel were. The WotL is part of their guardianship of the tree. The modern Aiel Was started to protect the Jenn and continued to protect the Jenn until their deaths, and after by protecting Rhuidean where the tree was located.

the gift of the tree was a trust unparalleled prior or since and the punishment expressed how important the tree still is to the Aiel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What did Rand reveal to the Aiel? That they were once followers of the way of the leaf.  That what was so shocking for the Aiel.  Nothing about them and guarding trees.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why is the way of the leaf called that?

Why did the Aiel prioritize trees when fleeing falling society? Then prioritize the trees over their own people. The tree was so sacred, and then the Aiel punish Laman’s Sin.

thats all I got. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No real Aiel (from the point of ages of legends view) lives during Rand’s life.

I tend to see that the Aiels are the ones who serve (through Aes Sedai) to everyone. Which are the ones who follow Rand to the last battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Jsbrads2 said:

Why is the way of the leaf called that?

 

Because that's the name Jordan chose. 😁 But seriously, the society of the Age of Legends was quite alien to anything we see in the books (reminiscent of the late Renaissance) or even our own contempary, modern society. The Way of the Leaf seems like some type of psuedo-spiritual philosophy meant to tie its adherents to a common goal (much like how Suiane described the Three Oaths).

 

The only real glimpse we get of AoL Aiel is during the growth-song (I forget the actual name used), where they are growing vegetables. It seems to me that the Aiel were akin to farmers. After all, someone needs to provide the food to sustain a global population. In the real world, starvation is the norm outside of first-world countries. The AoL is depicted as a "first-world planet," which means food-production is a MAJOR factor.

 

Aiel means "dedicated" ... what exactly were they dedicated to? Unless there is an answer in context, anything you or I would say is pure conjecture. You say they were dedicated to the Chora trees, I say they were dedicated to sustaining the populous... the WotL promotes empathy, which is a valuable trait to have if your purpose is to provide for people. And the cultlike mentality of the WotL ensues a shared, focused goal amongst all Aiel.

 

Again, this is just my speculation based on the information from the text. I'm not claiming I'm right, but the evidence supports this theory just as much as any other.

 

Quote

 


Why did the Aiel prioritize trees when fleeing falling society? Then prioritize the trees over their own people. The tree was so sacred, and then the Aiel punish Laman’s Sin.

 

 

What evidence is there that the Chora trees were more important than the artifacts of Power? I asked you to provide quotes for this claim. Otherwise, you're just shouting into the wind.

 

My interpretation is that the Aiel were simply asked to safeguard a variety of items so that civilization can be more easily rebuilt once the War ended. After all, Sammael finds glowglobes in a stasis box... that's the modern-day equivalent of locking a lamp in a vault. You only do that so you won't need to buy/built another lamp. The people intended to simply resume their lives exactly how they left them before the War started. They didn't expect the Breaking to occur.

 

Preserving the WotL would have been more important than the items simply because the items could be replaced, but empathy would be needed to renew hope that things will get better; that things will return to normal.

 

As for Laman's Sin, the gift of the tree was a symbol of the friendship between the two tribes. But there's some important context missing, namely, what the oath was when the gift was given. Killing Laman was pretty excessive, and that supports your claim that the Chora trees hold more significance to the Aiel than we're led to presume, but the precise nature of the oath could also explain why a death-sentence was warranted.

 

The hole in your theory, however, is that if the Chora trees were as important as you claim, why haven't the Aiel planted more? Let's say, one for each clan? Or more! Each time a new Clan Chief is chosen, he could return with a cutting, to plant in his hold.

 

The mysticism surrounding Avendesora more likely stems from the fact that so few Aiel actually get to see it. When the barrier around Rhuidean falls, and the city is made open to the public, the near-destruction of Avendesora is no more than a passing comment. If Jordan had intended for the tree to be so important, wouldn't he have dedicated some more time to showing the dispair and lamentation of the Aiel? I mean, RJ was not afraid to bloviate and needlessly detail events of his story; all indications show that the tree had much less significance than you are claiming it had.

Edited by Effete
Fixed typos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you recall Gaul first arriving in Westwood by the Waygate. Gaul thought the few short decrepit trees growing out of the dry stony soil was what a forest would look like before arriving in the wetlands.

There was no location in the Aiel waste where even a decrepit tree could grow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/27/2020 at 11:01 PM, Jsbrads2 said:

If you recall Gaul first arriving in Westwood by the Waygate. Gaul thought the few short decrepit trees growing out of the dry stony soil was what a forest would look like before arriving in the wetlands.

There was no location in the Aiel waste where even a decrepit tree could grow. 

 

But then doesn't this defeat your theory that the Aiel were all about preserving trees and growing things? Even if it were only the Chora trees they cared about, I'd imagine they'd make some considerable sacrifices to keep one alive... if they were as important as you claim. The fact that there are so many Aiel (hundreds of thousands, if not over a million) living in the Waste, that's a whole lot of water going just to sustain them, even at bare minimum amounts. If their population were cut in half, the "extra" water could be used to maintain one Chora tree per clan. And if Jordan wanted to get a bit grittier, he could have had Wise Ones use the Power to extract moisture from dead bodies (after all, he already stole the idea for the Aiel from Dune... why not some core concepts of the Fremen too?).

 

For each piece of evidence that supports your theory, I can find two that don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...