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agreddon

Do we have Elayne or Min?

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On 2/5/2020 at 7:50 PM, Freya12 said:

I agree. I have believed Kate Franz is Elayne since December.

Kate Franz 2.jpg

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I think there is a good likeness there to how Jordan described her.

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Rafe did like an Instagram AMA, and essentially confirmed that at least Min is in the first season.

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On 5/11/2020 at 7:21 AM, johnnysd said:

Rafe did like an Instagram AMA, and essentially confirmed that at least Min is in the first season.

Rafe also, I wouldn't say mocked, but heavily disparaged questions about combining any of Elayne, Min or Aviendha.

 

I've previously floated the idea of moving Min from stabling horses at the Stag and Lion to The Queen's Blessing (probably cutting Lamgwin here), giving her access to Gill's library (and therefore grounding in philosophy - sorry Herid Fel, you're cut too), can be sent to Tar Valon by Moiraine as messenger girl when it becomes clear they need to go via the Ways to Fal Dara (culling loads of expositional detail later), and have a more meaningful intro to her visions (she can vouch for Rand and Mat when they arrive at the Blessing).

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I don't think Fel needs to be cut.  He's barely in it as it is, and some of the secondary/tertiary cast needs to be in the story just to be killed off, in order to show the high stakes of the whole situation

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1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

I don't think Fel needs to be cut.  He's barely in it as it is, and some of the secondary/tertiary cast needs to be in the story just to be killed off, in order to show the high stakes of the whole situation

 Fel is a cameo only, maybe 2 Scenes, nothing more and you could have Rand and Min talk about him and get most of it anyway.

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Which is exactly why he doesn't really need to be cut.  He doesn't take up much screen time, but his death has a huge impact on Min, serves to illustrate that Rand's on the right track with his more academic/metaphysical way of working out the mysteries of his prophecied role in the Last Battle and what to do about the Taint, and demonstrates the hidden danger that's all around Rand wherever he goes.  It's a minor cost to include him, with a big enough narrative payout to make it worth it.

 

If I may make a bad analogy, adapting a book series like this for TV is like taking a 21 course feast and trying to winnow it down to a 6 course meal, trying to make sure the smaller meal captures as many of the same dining experiences as the larger feast as is possible.  Some big dishes will have to be cut, and others will have to be combined.  But when we start getting into the smaller aspects of the dishes, it starts to be like cutting out one or another of the spices or seasonings to the dish.  You risk changing the flavor entirely, or leaving it bland.

 

 

Cutting Fel is a relatively small cut to make.  But it's like cutting the salt out of a bread recipe.  You'll still get bread, it'll just taste rather bland.  And it doesn't cost much to include it, for the flavor you'll be rewarded with.

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8 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

Which is exactly why he doesn't really need to be cut.  He doesn't take up much screen time, but his death has a huge impact on Min, serves to illustrate that Rand's on the right track with his more academic/metaphysical way of working out the mysteries of his prophecied role in the Last Battle and what to do about the Taint, and demonstrates the hidden danger that's all around Rand wherever he goes.  It's a minor cost to include him, with a big enough narrative payout to make it worth it.

 

If I may make a bad analogy, adapting a book series like this for TV is like taking a 21 course feast and trying to winnow it down to a 6 course meal, trying to make sure the smaller meal captures as many of the same dining experiences as the larger feast as is possible.  Some big dishes will have to be cut, and others will have to be combined.  But when we start getting into the smaller aspects of the dishes, it starts to be like cutting out one or another of the spices or seasonings to the dish.  You risk changing the flavor entirely, or leaving it bland.

 

 

Cutting Fel is a relatively small cut to make.  But it's like cutting the salt out of a bread recipe.  You'll still get bread, it'll just taste rather bland.  And it doesn't cost much to include it, for the flavor you'll be rewarded with.

Sorry i think my post may have been a bit confusing, I actually meant that we should get the scene with Rand, Min and Fel, then have Rand keep Min updated on what Fel finds, with maybe a second short scene between Rand and Fel about cleansing the Taint. Then of course you have Fel’s death.

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On 5/21/2020 at 12:20 PM, Thrasymachus said:

I don't think Fel needs to be cut.  He's barely in it as it is, and some of the secondary/tertiary cast needs to be in the story just to be killed off, in order to show the high stakes of the whole situation

Being barely in it is precisely why I can't see him being cast. In all likelihood far more plot sensitive characters will be combined (Whitecloaks and Aes Sedai look good here). Don't get me wrong, I think Fel is a great character in the books but the books aren't constrained by anything except binding limits, while even a $10M/episode production still needs to establish even the most fleetingly significant characters

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This is why I worry about this show. 

 

What do you cut? What *can* you cut? Fel appears, what, twice in the books? Easy to cut that out. Conventional wisdom says he's a character you can easily remove. But Fel brings a lot to the table despite his lack of page time; he helps illustrate Rand's plans, hopes, and thoughts about his role in the Last Battle, he sets Min on the path of philosophy, he's essentially the "face" of Rand's school (despite not being the headmaster) and the school tells us a lot about Rand as a character and what he hopes to accomplish and leave behind. And of course, Fel's death cements not only the stakes but also that Rand is on the right track regarding the seals to the Dark One's prison.

 

So who else do you use to fill in for all of that? Moraine? Rand barely trusts her. Thom? Sure he knows a lot of stuff a gleeman shouldn't, but this seems outside even his purview. Loial? Perhaps; he is a main source of random academia. But even if one of these characters can provide the same information Fel provides, what about all the rest of it? What about the school and what it represents to Rand? What about the death that proves Rand is on the right track? Is this going to help push Min towards philosophy? 

 

The show needs some red shirts, and honestly Fel serves this role well because his death, while a strong motivation, is the least of what he offers the story. 

 

But like I said, this is why I worry about the show. The WoT is dense and minor characters often have a deep impact; cutting a character who seems inconsequential at first glance could end up unraveling the whole thing.

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That's exactly it, Ascended.  He makes a perfect "redshirt."

 

One character that I think can be cut is Jaichim Carridin.  He doesn't really bring anything to anybody's story, he mainly serves as an insider's perspective on the insidiousness of the Dark.  He accomplishes nothing of note, and ends up drowned in his favorite drink for failure.  It's an interesting diversion and bit of world-building for the novels, but it's not essential for the TV series.

 

I imagine one could pretty significantly cut Bayle Domon and Egeanin's story line as well.  They don't have to be cut entirely, though they could be.  

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24 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

That's exactly it, Ascended.  He makes a perfect "redshirt."

 

One character that I think can be cut is Jaichim Carridin.  He doesn't really bring anything to anybody's story, he mainly serves as an insider's perspective on the insidiousness of the Dark.  He accomplishes nothing of note, and ends up drowned in his favorite drink for failure.  It's an interesting diversion and bit of world-building for the novels, but it's not essential for the TV series.

 

I imagine one could pretty significantly cut Bayle Domon and Egeanin's story line as well.  They don't have to be cut entirely, though they could be.  

The only problem with cutting Bayle’s story is how do Rand, Thom and Mat get to Whitebridge? Egeanin is also central to the storyline about Sul’dam being able to learn to Channel and she would be a good way to introduce Seanchan culture and the way they do things.

I’m going to have to agree with @Ascended on this, they need to be careful who they cut,  a seemingly minor-ish character can be far more important than the amount of screen time and lines they get. Egeanin/Lealwin is very much a window into Seanchan society, and her rise and fall. Do we need her relationship with Bayle Domon, probably not, but I wouldn’t be disappointed if it did go that way.

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Egeanin plays that role in the novels, sure, but it's not essential for her to play that role.  We have Tuon for the Seanchan perspective later on, when it makes more sense thematically to begin humanizing the Seanchan.  The revelation about sul'dam can be dealt with both more generally and more directly, confronting the Seanchan later on with converted sul'dam, while discussions among the main characters before that can deal with it being relevatory for the Seanchan in the first place.  The whole bit about the Seeker can be dropped.

 

If they keep the flight down the Arinelle for Rand, Mat and Thom, and I'm not convinced they will, Domon doesn't even have to be a named character for that, or show up again for his minor appearances later on.  The Wonder Girls don't make use of him in Falme, and while he helps out in Tanchico, it's nothing that can't be handled by Thom, Juilin, and a bit of coin. 

 

Hell, I could see cutting out the Sad Bracelets storyline entirely.  Semirhage can take over Rand some other way, possibly using the True Power, forcing Rand to take it to escape her.  They'll have to find something else for Elayne and Nynaeve to do, but if they go north intending to return to Tar Valon following the fall of the Stone instead, they can encounter Suian, Min, Leane and Logain, and join that arc.  Which would help keep Suian and Leane from becoming almost main characters themselves.  And help tighten up the friendship between Elayne and Min to make the threesome a bit more believable and palatable for TV audiences.

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I can see Egeanin and Domon being cut, or reduced to bit characters with only a couple lines of dialogue, without it impacting too many plot threads. But you still gotta be careful; who became Egwene's Warder when Gawyn got his fool self killed? Egeanin. Who brought the second Seal to Falme? Domon. 

 

You can get around those particular examples easily enough yeah, but that's not really the point; these are things that you might not think of immediately and say "Sure, let's cut these characters." Then down the road, you find that there's a whole subplot or deus ex machina or whatever that the cut character/s were central to, and now you have to find a way to make the plot work without them. If that happens once or twice, no big deal, at best you find a smooth way to transition through the story beat, at worst you might end up with a few plot holes in an episode or two. But that stuff adds up, and with this series? Cutting minor characters could add up to a whole lot of problems real quick.

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2 hours ago, Ascended said:

I can see Egeanin and Domon being cut, or reduced to bit characters with only a couple lines of dialogue, without it impacting too many plot threads. But you still gotta be careful; who became Egwene's Warder when Gawyn got his fool self killed? Egeanin. Who brought the second Seal to Falme? Domon. 

 

You can get around those particular examples easily enough yeah, but that's not really the point; these are things that you might not think of immediately and say "Sure, let's cut these characters." Then down the road, you find that there's a whole subplot or deus ex machina or whatever that the cut character/s were central to, and now you have to find a way to make the plot work without them. If that happens once or twice, no big deal, at best you find a smooth way to transition through the story beat, at worst you might end up with a few plot holes in an episode or two. But that stuff adds up, and with this series? Cutting minor characters could add up to a whole lot of problems real quick.

I would like to see them keep Egeanin, I think her rise to the blood then her fall to become leilwin Shipless is at the very heart of the Seanchan Society in a way you could never do with Tuon. But it all depends on how deep they go with the Seanchan. 
You could cut the Seanchan, other than Falme and still tell a brilliant story, they are more about life post Tarmon Gai’don, not that i would want them to.

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