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SA land reforms

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https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/746953/south-africa-land-reforms-white-farmers-constitution-changed-cyril-ramaphosa

 

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The country’s National Assembly approved a proposal to change the constitution to make the so-called reforms legal in a vote of 183 to 77.

This paves the way for land to be taken from farmers without giving any kind of compensation.

According to local reports, Economic Freedom Fighters MP Hlengiwe Mkhaliphi argued land grabs must go ahead as she declared: “Your time is up, white people”.

It is believed that when South Africa’s Constitution is amended, it could be done by inserting into Section 25 the phrase: “Zero compensation may be regarded as just and equitable”.

South Africa’s President Cyril Ramaphosa has previously defended his radical plans, saying they are necessary for equality.

 

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"What it will do, is leave higher paying jobs that are going to get flooded by people getting re-educated."

 

If you look back at hisotory , while their have been many attempts, there has never been a succesful "Re-education" program that has worked in a large scale. What has occured is that while a few people might get succesfully re-trained the vast majority remain unemployable.  It occured, after the agricultural revolution, after the indusstrial revolution and it's happening today in the US. People who find their skills inadequate for a new economy are left by the wayside. It's not until the next generation (and sometimes not even then) that the disposed again join the workforce.

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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6581753/Race-row-South-Africa-health-officials-advertise-100-new-doctors-not-white-medics.html

 

Quote

A race row has broken out in South Africa after health officials advertised for 100 new doctors, but did not allow white medics to apply for specialist roles.

 

The health department in the KwaZulu-Natal province expanded its registrar programme for 2019 from 314 to 414, but aimed to fill the new posts with only black candidates.

 

Health bosses said the move was implemented to redress the country's historical racial imbalance of Apartheid that saw most high-ranking positions filed by white doctors.

 

Campaigners and human rights activists have branded the recruitment policy 'discriminatory, unconstitutional and racist'.

 

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Wow. This reeks of Apartheid swinging the other way. He always warned it would happen. It will settle in a few generations, I feel. They have not had long since Apartheid ended. It makes sense, in a way, that they would start doing this as that is how they have lived for so long. It does not change the fact it is wrong, but I understand how South Africa's leaders would approach this. It is a real shame what is happening.

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On 5/2/2019 at 11:21 PM, wotfan4472 said:

Wow. This reeks of Apartheid swinging the other way. He always warned it would happen. It will settle in a few generations, I feel. They have not had long since Apartheid ended. It makes sense, in a way, that they would start doing this as that is how they have lived for so long. It does not change the fact it is wrong, but I understand how South Africa's leaders would approach this. It is a real shame what is happening.

SA in general is a ClusterF*** of issues that us as Americans aren't fully able to comprehend, as SA is a completely different beast compared to America when it comes to politics and racial tensions.

However, you have to be very careful with the sources you read regarding SA.
Many Right-Wing Conservative Nationals are purposely misconstruing events/laws passed to further their ideological propaganda that white people (And their chosen religion) are being systematically targeted, killed, stolen from, and all around oppressed throughout the world, and that America is next if we aren't careful.

What I mean by this, is for every 1 story that says Blacks are stealing land from whites, or targeting white farmers in genocide, there's 9 other stories that show they aren't the only ones being hit/targeted/stolen from. The truth lies somewhere between the two. I believe we have a couple of people here on these boards that live in SA, and it could be interesting to get their input on this stuff.

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My great Aunt came from that country, and she was lovely. I posted what I said, because that is how a nation goes with it's history unfortunately, if it's leaders at some point chose another path. We know they did. After Nelson Mandela showed another path for the nation, I actually believe that within a few generations, South Africa will change again. South Africa's troubles can be tied entirely to Apartheid's impact on the nation. It will take a long time to deal with that history, but their is hope of a better society.  But South Africa must find that solution. Perhaps do what New Zealand did with it's laws. But right now, they are dealing with a large percentage of the population that has lived directly under those kinds of laws. For many, that is what they were taught.  Again, it will take time and a heck of a lot of work. The Commonwealth can provide ideas on how to handle that, but South Africa has to decide as a united nation what she wants to do. Just as New Zealand had to. New Zealand will give her support, advice and encouragement as she has always done. The South African people know that too. It has only been a few decades since that was fully abolished. It will take time for the leadership to shift from that, and it will. But only if the people say enough and it must be unanimous. I know there are plenty of her people striving for that nation. They have to keep trying and do not give up, and have the courage to learn from their history. They are more than capable of doing so, which is why I have hope. If New Zealand can find it's way through her mistakes she has made, and continues to make, then South Africa can too. And no, that comment on New Zealand is not about Christchurch, so do not try 😛 I agree with your points, except New Zealand has a lot of history with South Africa, more than with Australia, actually. While South Africa went down one road, we went down the other, or tried to. Apartheid affected us as well, since it's architects had a hand in New Zealand's mistakes when dealing with Maori, just as US did at one point. But that is a story for another time.

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On 5/10/2019 at 11:53 AM, SinisterDeath said:

SA in general is a ClusterF*** of issues that us as Americans aren't fully able to comprehend, as SA is a completely different beast compared to America when it comes to politics and racial tensions.

However, you have to be very careful with the sources you read regarding SA.
Many Right-Wing Conservative Nationals are purposely misconstruing events/laws passed to further their ideological propaganda that white people (And their chosen religion) are being systematically targeted, killed, stolen from, and all around oppressed throughout the world, and that America is next if we aren't careful.

What I mean by this, is for every 1 story that says Blacks are stealing land from whites, or targeting white farmers in genocide, there's 9 other stories that show they aren't the only ones being hit/targeted/stolen from. The truth lies somewhere between the two. I believe we have a couple of people here on these boards that live in SA, and it could be interesting to get their input on this stuff.

Truth is the the SA ruling Party is a gang of thugs who are stealing from everyone but are pointedly doing so from whites with a passion. This partially goes over well politically with the masses of black voters who understandably see whites with a juandice eye. But the fact that the Ruling Party is both being plitically coy and spreads the harm to known whites does not mean that they are not steadily disapproriating the wealth from white south africans.

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25 minutes ago, CUBAREY said:

Truth is the the SA ruling Party is a gang of thugs who are stealing from everyone but are pointedly doing so from whites with a passion. This partially goes over well politically with the masses of black voters who understandably see whites with a juandice eye. But the fact that the Ruling Party is both being plitically coy and spreads the harm to known whites does not mean that they are not steadily disapproriating the wealth from white south africans.

 

What are you basing this on? What are your sources?

Like I said, SA is a cluster****. We can't view it from an American perspective of race-relations.

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2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

What are you basing this on? What are your sources?

Like I said, SA is a cluster****. We can't view it from an American perspective of race-relations.

 

So view it from a different perspective?

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That's what books and articles are for.  The land distribution in South Africa is currently not equitable with most of the land being held by whites.  This is a legacy of colonialism and apartheid.  Land reform has been an objective of the South African government for a long time, but the way they have been going about it so far is not working as it is going too slowly.  So they're trying to speed it up by expropriating without compensation, and that's where the controversy comes in because some people see that as opening the door to a Zimbabwe-type situation.  Finding a way to implement land reform that is both effective and just is going to be difficult.

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5 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

What are you basing this on? What are your sources?

Like I said, SA is a cluster****. We can't view it from an American perspective of race-relations.

Actually as a country that effectively practiced apartied itself, The US ais actually in a much better position to judge what is happening as we actually have a somewhat similar history of race relations.

 

As for "What are you basing this on? What are your sources?"  Stories in the Economist, New York Times, and the Spainish (as in Spain ) national newspapers that have a variety of ideological positions.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Nolder said:

He's trying to say we CAN'T understand because we're not South African.

No.

What I'm saying is you can't apply America's version of post-slavery Racism to South Africa.

The racial demographics are wildly different. (Whites out number Blacks in America. It's the other way around in SA)
Culturally, the black populations of South Africa are completely different than the post-slavery black populations in America. 

 

When it comes to racism in South Africa from whites (and blacks), it's hard to tell from an American perspective what's racist and whats realist. 

 

10 hours ago, CUBAREY said:

Actually as a country that effectively practiced apartied itself, The US ais actually in a much better position to judge what is happening as we actually have a somewhat similar history of race relations.

 

As for "What are you basing this on? What are your sources?"  Stories in the Economist, New York Times, and the Spainish (as in Spain ) national newspapers that have a variety of ideological positions.

Aight, just wanted to make sure you were getting your information from reputable places and not those weird right-wing nationalist websites that have a hard-on for anything South Africa to further their right-wing nationalist agenda. :wink:

(Like those old ladies on Facebook that are always posting things from these ultra Christian #fakenews websites, that are always talking about how Christians are being persecuted more than anyone else in the world, and the news doesn't report it.... When the news actually does,  they just don't focus on it like MSNBC did Flight 370)

Edited by SinisterDeath

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"Aight, just wanted to make sure you were getting your information from reputable places and not those weird right-wing nationalist websites that have a hard-on for anything South Africa to further their right-wing nationalist agenda. :wink:"

 

Well you might call some of the Spanish right wing newspaters weird right-wing nationalist, but since similar stories have been published in the New York Times, Washington Post, etc. I think that even fringe Leftist should admit that the SA government is engaging in rather disreputable policies.

 

 

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15 hours ago, CUBAREY said:

"Aight, just wanted to make sure you were getting your information from reputable places and not those weird right-wing nationalist websites that have a hard-on for anything South Africa to further their right-wing nationalist agenda. :wink:"

 

Well you might call some of the Spanish right wing newspaters weird right-wing nationalist, but since similar stories have been published in the New York Times, Washington Post, etc. I think that even fringe Leftist should admit that the SA government is engaging in rather disreputable policies.

 

 

News Papers are a bit more reputable than the random #fakenews website that grannies share on FB.

Like, even the Inquirer is more reputable than some of these organizations that brand themselves as news...

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"

News Papers are a bit more reputable than the random #fakenews website that grannies share on FB.

Like, even the Inquirer is more reputable than some of these organizations that brand themselves as news..."

 

So for you the fact that its a corporate entity that is deceminating the news makes it more valid? 

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1 hour ago, CUBAREY said:

"

News Papers are a bit more reputable than the random #fakenews website that grannies share on FB.

Like, even the Inquirer is more reputable than some of these organizations that brand themselves as news..."

 

So for you the fact that its a corporate entity that is deceminating the news makes it more valid? 

Nah. Coprorations and printform media can totally be #fakenews. (Hence I why name bombed Inquirer.. But I don't think even they take themselves that seriously.)


It's just that with the billion #fakenews websites out there, requiring more than one person to publish articles and stories in an industry that you hope self-checks itself against falsehoods and holds some form of journalistic integrity, that they might be a bit more trustworthy, than a rando-website setup in your mother's basement trying to pass off twitter articles or homeopathic/antivax propaganda as real news.

 

Hence when you said

Quote

Well you might call some of the Spanish right wing newspaters weird right-wing nationalist, but since similar stories have been published in the New York Times, Washington Post, etc. I think that even fringe Leftist should admit that the SA government is engaging in rather disreputable policies.

Spanish Right Wing papers = Nationalists, perhaps? But if the same stories are coming out of NYT  & WP chances are the facts are the similar, just the interpretation differs. Often #fakenews sites, make up their own facts, and claim that no one else is reporting this... When they are.

 

I'm more concerned with #fakenews networks like this. (Clearly this isn't a racist nationalist fake news site, just a Christian one)

https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/31824-silent-slaughter-media-quiet-as-muslims-kill-hundreds-of-christians-in-nigeria

 

One of the articles on this particular subject within that network of news sites, named Dropped the Fulani as Muslim Terrorists and the other Group of Nigerian farmers as Christians. It mentioned a specific X number of people killed and attributed that to the Fulani. When researching further, that exact number were in fact Fulani killed by the Farmers, and that, that conflict is two sided against farmers & herders that has been ongoing.. for generations? and always peaks during elections.

Here's some background on the conflict in general.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36139388

Edited by SinisterDeath

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I think fake news is primarily about bias and understanding when it effects reporting. I don't trust anything CNN says about Trump without a second source but a CNN article about Sears closing stores is probably fine. After reading the articles linked as well as articles referenced in them I would say it's easy to identify the bias in this case. The Christians don't care to give more information. I don't think it's intentional fake news but it is misleading. All they want you to know are Christian farmers are dying that's all that matters. On the flip side that BBC reporter is a Muslim and it's clear he's saying both sides are equally guilty but how can that be when the Muslims are coming into the Christians farmlands? I don't think we are getting the full story from either source so I wouldn't take a wide yet.

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"that they might be a bit more trustworthy, than a rando-website setup in your mother's basement trying to pass off twitter articles or homeopathic/antivax propaganda as real news."

 

Except that some of those sites look quite professional and spend a decent amount of money of looking "corporate".  

 

As for your greater point, yia but that is why I cited the New York Times, Washingtom Post, and Spanish national newspapers as my source for my opinions on what is happening in South Africa.

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16 hours ago, Nolder said:

On the flip side that BBC reporter is a Muslim

Is he?

All I know is he's reporter in Africa. I can't find anything about his actual religion.

 

Quote

On the flip side that BBC reporter is a Muslim and it's clear he's saying both sides are equally guilty but how can that be when the Muslims are coming into the Christians farmlands?

The best way I can put it is this.

The Fulani https://www.britannica.com/topic/Fulani

Predominately Muslim, and obviously not all are Muslim. Have been Quarreling with the Christian farmers for a pretty long time. It's less a Religion vs Religion as Culture vs Culture, or Lifestyle vs Lifestyle issue.

 

To put it into another perspective, The Wild West Cowboys vs Farmer/Ranchers. 

Cowboy: "We've been herding our cattle here for 70 years!"
Farmer: "I bought this land fair and square, this land is for my cattle!"
It's a tale as old as time.

 

One of the articles on a site like I posted, literally claimed that X Christian farmers were killed by Fulani Herders, when the Farmers actually did the killing of the herders. They also neglect to mention that both sides are tit-for-tat killing each other, and act like only the Herders are doing the killings. The BBC article at least mentions both sides killing each other.

 

Quote

I don't think we are getting the full story from either source so I wouldn't take a wide yet.

I'm sure we aren't getting the full story either. But there's only so much we can gain from

Image result for trump shit hole countries

Like that.

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19 minutes ago, Nolder said:

Yeah I looked up his twitter. If you scroll enough it becomes clear.

I had to scroll quite far on his twitter page before it became indisputable that he is Muslim. 

The newest stuff was just regular old newsie stuff for his neck of the woods. Once I got past the news stuff and things he actually tweeted, yea he is.

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