Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Pick one thing that you'd change and why


Recommended Posts

For me it would be the Seanchan. Almost everything about them disgusts me; the slavery and indoctrination/brainwashing of people; the stupidity of not looking into each others eyes; their sheer brutality and cruelty; and, worst of all, the frankly evil practice of turning people who can channel into fucking pets. The only positive I can think of is that they are very efficient, especially when compared to the other nations, and they do bring some sense of stability to the locales they conquer.

 

What would you change and why?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have had the Seanchan sign a treaty agreeing to return home and release all the slaves they held. This would be a mercy for having taken part in the Last Battle. This would be grey as you would be pardoning the war crimes of their leaders and other acts which are greater than many of the characters allied with the Dark One. So there would be no justice for the victims but the war could end peacefully.

 

Instead you see an evil empire covering half the continent that we know could go genocidal and dash everything that was sacrificed in the war. Plus they keep all their slaves. I still do not understand how that is a satisfying end to their story. Tuon is a monster. She’s barely any different to the Forsaken and point blank refuses to change her ways despite being told the truth. She is a rank hypocrite who revelled in having power over other people. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting post, but I'm confused on if you're asking what you'd change about Randland or about the books?  If you're talking about the books, I couldn't disagree with you more.  You NEED villains.  And a villain that makes you vocal while reading about them for the first time, is a win.  I remember enjoying my first read of the WoT, but it wasn't until we finally meet the Seanchan that I had a "holy cr*p" moment!  This was something new and surprising and downright evil.  The fact that they have a rational justification for treating people like animals makes it that much more despicable to me.  And also that much more enjoyable to watch them fail.

 

If I could change one thing about the books, however, it would be pacing.  After Lord of Chaos, the series seems to have become a little wordy.  I enjoy backstory as much as anybody, but Jordan started adding new names at astonishing rates. There were times when I was sure that I was supposed to care... but didn't; just because I couldn't remember why the person we're reading about was important in any meaningful way.

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, tkarrde421 said:

Interesting post, but I'm confused on if you're asking what you'd change about Randland or about the books?  If you're talking about the books, I couldn't disagree with you more.  You NEED villains.  And a villain that makes you vocal while reading about them for the first time, is a win.  I remember enjoying my first read of the WoT, but it wasn't until we finally meet the Seanchan that I had a "holy cr*p" moment!  This was something new and surprising and downright evil.  The fact that they have a rational justification for treating people like animals makes it that much more despicable to me.  And also that much more enjoyable to watch them fail.

 

If I could change one thing about the books, however, it would be pacing.  After Lord of Chaos, the series seems to have become a little wordy.  I enjoy backstory as much as anybody, but Jordan started adding new names at astonishing rates. There were times when I was sure that I was supposed to care... but didn't; just because I couldn't remember why the person we're reading about was important in any meaningful way.

 

Oh yes, I absolutely hated them after the second book and every attempt to humanise them fell on deaf ears. In fact it got worse after they introduced Tuon. Which in turn almost ruined Matt for me as I felt he never acknowledged how bad Tuon.

 

See I thought their  reasoning was flawed from the beginning. If you’re afraid of an atom bomb you don’t start bombing everyone. How is using channellers to murder people preventing their powers being abused? As opposed to the group of channellers who forsake violence against non-Darkspawn? Plus they aren’t rational. They needlessly, cruelly abuse their damane and (including Tuon) relish having that power over them. Which is sick and twisted. 

 

What I meant was that the villain should have got their comeuppance rather than being treated like one of the good guys who didn’t do any of the work and took all the credit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have changed The Gathering Storm and focused more on Loial and the Great Stump, and moved Perrin's story from there to the Towers Of Midnight.. We never got a good look at the Ogier and how they communicate with each other when it is only their people. We saw how the Aiel behave when it is themselves. I would have liked the Ogier from their own perspective. The Knife Of Dreams was great with the hint of that community and customs. Such a missed opportunity.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi WOT1402, sorry, i was responding to the OP, not to your post.  I agree that the Seanchan were handled all wrong at the end, and it aggravated me no end to see Rand agree to it.  If I were a conspiratorial fan, this pact might have been done on purpose to leave room for Aviendha's ter'angreal viewing to become a reality in the future?

 

The Seanchan were villains that I loved to hate.  The Foresaken and Black Ajah were outright evil, and they made no excuses.  The Seanchan, however, were evil and did evil things, but the way they were written was just amazing.  I wouldn't take them out of the books if I could!  They have a believable history, and one that's gets more incredible the more you think about it.  Talk about the snowball effect:

 

  • Artur captures the false dragon Amalasan
  • He has to recapture him within the walls of the White Tower, and instead of gratitude from the Amyrlin Bohnwhin, he's treated as an invader and told to leave
  • Shortly after, three nations attempt to invade Artur's nation of Shandalle.  All of them are repelled and defeated by the Hawkwing.  But it's strongly implied that the Amyrlin is behind this.
  • Several other personal tragedies follow Artur (all possibly laid at the hands of Bonwhin)
  • Artur conquers all of Randland with the exception of the Aiel Waste, and (under the influence of Ishamael-in-disguise) goes to war with the White Tower.
  • Artur sends his son, Luthair, across the Aryth Ocean to conquer the distant lands there.
  • Luthair knew only mistrust and hatred of Aes Sedai from his father, and his new empire would reflect that

Absolutely incredible. And yet believable motivations make it feel real to the reader.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To clarify my original post, I meant to say what would change in the books. Maybe a plot line that wasn't fully realised or maybe just the opposite. 

 

To further clarify, I wasn't advocating the removal of the Seanchan from the books, I was more bemoaning the lack of a satisfactory conclusion. Tuon is a tyrannical dictator who refutes the truth when it's handed to her point blank. The Seanchan deserved some comeuppance for their atrocities. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not have had Moiraine disappear so early and I would have had her return in much more detail than it was. There was no reunion with any of the main characters and she was virtually gone in a cave during the last battle.

 

I really would have wanted to read the pre-quel that RJ had planned to write. It was from the end of New Spring to the beginning of Eye of the World. That book would have covered the 20 years Moiraine and Lan were searching for Rand. Sadly, that book was all in RJ's head ad there were no notes.

Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

I would not have had Moiraine disappear so early and I would have had her return in much more detail than it was. There was no reunion with any of the main characters and she was virtually gone in a cave during the last battle. 

 

I really would have wanted to read the pre-quel that RJ had planned to write. It was from the end of New Spring to the beginning of Eye of the World. That book would have covered the 20 years Moiraine and Lan were searching for Rand. Sadly, that book was all in RJ's head ad there were no notes.

 

Oh, definitely. Moraine was absolutely kick-ass and she was gone far, far too soon. It is little things like this why I rank Book 14 as the worst of the series. So many threads left swinging in the wind.

 

I never knew about the planned prequel. It is a damned shame RJ never got to write it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have loved to have seen Setalle Anan healed - preferably by a male channeller so she'd be as strong or stronger in the One Power than she was before she was burned out. I really loved her character and was really looking forward to a 'win' like this for her, but it never happened...

 

I didn't like that Rand didn't reveal himself to Tam - HIS GRIEVING FATHER - and would like to think that he would have let Tam know he was still alive, some time in the future. 

 

And the Seanchan. Oh my God. I can't begin to tell you how much they frustrated me. Yes, we need villains but they were downright frustrating to the point where they distracted from my enjoyment of the story. I didn't love to hate them as a reader above here said. I just bloody hated them LOL. So yeah, I really wanted to see them set back on their arse. Another thing that never happened. 

 

But now that I think about it, I reckon that the rumours about a sequel were true. RJ introduced the Seanchan so early in the series, and might have left the conflict unresolved so he could explore it in a sequel. Not 'book 15', but book 1 of the next age, the big bad being the Seanchan. Rand was paramount in the prophecies concerning the DO, and once the DO was defeated, Rand was able to take a back seat, go enjoy the world, being all zen with nature and all that. This leaves the Aes Sedai and Black Tower and all the nations to deal with the threat of the Seanchan in the next lot of books. 


By book 14 (haha) of this sequel, I think we would have seen massive changes in the Seanchan empire: a completely altered thinking, and the freeing of their enslaved channellers.

 

I agree that Tuon was an absolute monster - for the same reasons given by other posters above. There was nothing endearing about her, no matter how RJ tried to humanise her. She was totally wasted on Matt, she was most definitely the wrong choice for him. But I suppose if the story had been able to be continued, Matt would have been paramount in helping to change the Seanchan way of thinking, by starting at the top - with Tuon... 

 

I'd have loved to have read something like that, but sadly, RJ is no longer with us and if that was his dream initially, it's not something that can be realised. 

 

Except in Fanfiction LOL! 

 

 

Edited by francy
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lord English said:

 

Oh, definitely. Moraine was absolutely kick-ass and she was gone far, far too soon. It is little things like this why I rank Book 14 as the worst of the series. So many threads left swinging in the wind.

 

I never knew about the planned prequel. It is a damned shame RJ never got to write it.

 

Book 14 is the worst!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree that the resolution of the Seanchan was unsatisfying.  Destroying them entirely, or seeing the cracks in the facade would have been at least something.  But for Tuon to walk away from that initial meeting with Rand really disappointed me.  I really wanted to like her, since Mat's relationship with her kind of started to humanize her.  There's being "strong" and then there's being "stubborn".  She knows the lie, and she perpetuates it because she sees it as her claim to power.

 

As for the post above written by therealElyas, I'm not sure if you're joking or not.  But I think you can tell a lot about a person who believes that "savage beatings to ALL the female protagonists" is warranted or remotely funny.

 

I think we can all agree that there are so many loose ends, and so many interesting ideas that are not fully fleshed out due to RJ's death:

 

  • I also would have liked to see some way to combine the talents of all three Ta'veren at the same time in The Last Battle.  I know that it would have just been fan pandering, but the three Emond's Fielders hadn't been altogether since the first book.
  • I would have liked to see Cadsuane die.  She was a bully, pure and simple.  I agree that Rand was getting too big for his britches, but how would any of us react if we were told that we had to be the savior by probably being a martyr?
  • Would have liked to have time for Moiraine to make the rounds, reuniting with all the people's lives that she touched.  I'd read that book.
  • Gawyn's life and death... all of it so pointless.  He had real potential to be an interesting character, and yet fails each and every time.

Yeah, that's more than the "one thing that you'd change" as was presented by OP, but I just couldn't help myself!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was put off by the Sharans. The distant land was only hinted at throughout the books as a mysterious place with brutal customs.

 

Then, during the Last Battle, they appear out of nowhere, with no warning, acting like another invading force similar to the Seanchan, causing more harm than good.

 

I only read MoL once, so I might be mis-remembering their motivations and details, but that was my final impression.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, JamesBrown said:

I was put off by the Sharans. The distant land was only hinted at throughout the books as a mysterious place with brutal customs.

 

Then, during the Last Battle, they appear out of nowhere, with no warning, acting like another invading force similar to the Seanchan, causing more harm than good.

 

I only read MoL once, so I might be mis-remembering their motivations and details, but that was my final impression.

Yeah, the Sharans are another victim of "imagine what RJ could've done with them had he lived" syndrome.  There are many prequel possibilities here.  I think (now that the cat is outta the bag with how the Last Battle turns out) RJ could have made a book apiece for the Forsaken and we would've eaten it up!  I mean, i think there's a fair number of Origin Stories that hadn't been explored fully.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 10:50 AM, tkarrde421 said:

I do agree that the resolution of the Seanchan was unsatisfying.  Destroying them entirely, or seeing the cracks in the facade would have been at least something.  But for Tuon to walk away from that initial meeting with Rand really disappointed me.  I really wanted to like her, since Mat's relationship with her kind of started to humanize her.  There's being "strong" and then there's being "stubborn".  She knows the lie, and she perpetuates it because she sees it as her claim to power.

 

 

 

This.  Agree 100%.  They could have done something there with the Seanchan...but didn't.  The result was an unsatisfying conclusion to their arc.  It didn't make me like/dislike any more than I already did - but it did feel unsatisfying 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I recall reading an interview with RJ where he said that when he finised WoT he was going to start another series set in Seanchan.

 

This was obviously before he fell ill.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JamesBrown said:

I recall reading an interview with RJ where he said that when he finised WoT he was going to start another series set in Seanchan.

 

This was obviously before he fell ill.

 

Exactly what I was going to say. RJ planned a Mat and Seanchan spin off.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would see more of the forsaken and have them to be an actual threat. 

 

I thought for the most part, they weren't explored enough and when the protagonists came into contact with them, they fell over pretty easily.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually really like the Seanchan

What would change though, is give Fain a proper conclusion.

On 1/10/2019 at 1:54 PM, Lethira said:

I would see more of the forsaken and have them to be an actual threat. 

 

I thought for the most part, they weren't explored enough and when the protagonists came into contact with them, they fell over pretty easily.

 

 

I also wholeheartedly agree with this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, actually, I just remembered that the golden city, beyond the Aiel Wastes, was explored exactly zero times in the books. And the books made it a place that definitely seemed worthy of exploration. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the sharans were a victim of RJ spending too much time on stuff that went nowhere, like Luca or took too long to wrap, faile's rescue. Don't get me wrong, I listened to the whole story cover to cover so to speak because story as a whole made up for the less than stellar parts. In this regard I think Brandon gets unfairly blamed by some when he had no control over the first 11 books. E.g. the Sharans should've been introduced in FOH or something and not as a Deus Ex Machina bad guy army.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I realize that I am probably in the minority of WOT fans here on dragonmount when I say this. However, I remember when I read AMOL and the introduction of the Sharans being led by Demandred that I was absolutely thrilled at such a revelation. Personally speaking, I was glad that RJ and Sanderson held the Sharans back for such a huge and important part of the story. Without the Sharans, I believe that the forces of Light armies could have rather easily defeated the trolloc armies and the dreadlords. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...