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Who should/will the Dems run in 2020?

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3 minutes ago, Tyzack said:

Also 30% said “someone else”

That's what I noticed as well.

Dems are hungry for a new leader but they haven't found one yet.

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My gut says it won’t be a white man, at the very least, so Biden and sanders are out, along with the governors of CO/MT.

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15 minutes ago, Tyzack said:

My gut says it won’t be a white man, at the very least, so Biden and sanders are out, along with the governors of CO/MT.

Alright...

 

Weird call but ok.

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20 minutes ago, Tyzack said:

My gut says it won’t be a white man, at the very least, so Biden and sanders are out, along with the governors of CO/MT.

What if its a White male Transitioning to Female?

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1 hour ago, Lenlo said:

Alright...

 

Weird call but ok.

 

Why do you think it's weird? Look at both the democratic base and democratic messages which build winning coalitions; both are based around asperational stories. The most aspirational story in America has always been the outsider, the upstart, to a strange extant, that narrative is what helped Trump. The democrats need to engage their base and take the transformative aspirational title away from Trump. Generically, the candidate who can best do that would be someone who isn't a straight cis-genedered white male.

 

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1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

What if its a White male Transitioning to Female?

 

*eyeroll*

 

"white male = cis-gendered straight white male"

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1 hour ago, Tyzack said:

 

Why do you think it's weird? Look at both the democratic base and democratic messages which build winning coalitions; both are based around asperational stories. The most aspirational story in America has always been the outsider, the upstart, to a strange extant, that narrative is what helped Trump. The democrats need to engage their base and take the transformative aspirational title away from Trump. Generically, the candidate who can best do that would be someone who isn't a straight cis-genedered white male.

 

Because lets be real here. How many options that fit this category do you think you have? That people recognize and care about?

 

Also, that line at the bottom? Poppycock. No one cares about that. This rhetoric right here? This is what the Right will nail you for in the general election. And if you try to force a nomination again, you will only upset people more.

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3 hours ago, Lenlo said:

Because lets be real here. How many options that fit this category do you think you have? That people recognize and care about?

 

Also, that line at the bottom? Poppycock. No one cares about that. This rhetoric right here? This is what the Right will nail you for in the general election. And if you try to force a nomination again, you will only upset people more.

 

Well, here's the list we're currently talking about:

 

https://front.moveon.org/moveon-2020-straw-poll-results/

 

Someone Else / Don’t Know 17.89%
Beto O’Rourke 15.60%
Joe Biden 14.95%
Bernie Sanders 13.15%
Kamala Harris 10.02%
Elizabeth Warren 6.42%
Sherrod Brown 2.92%
Amy Klobuchar 2.75%
Michael Bloomberg 2.71%
Cory Booker 2.63%
Joseph Kennedy III 1.90%
Stacey Abrams 1.16%
Kirsten Gillibrand 1.09%
Tulsi Gabbard 0.78%
John Hickenlooper 0.71%
Eric Holder 0.59%
Eric Swalwell 0.54%
Julián Castro 0.48%
Jeff Merkley 0.42%
Jay Inslee 0.38%
Andrew Gillum 0.36%

 

I had to end the list somewhere

=== 

12/20

5/(top)10 

2/(top)5

met my qualifications

 

So I'd say that it's not -forcing- anything on the party. This is what the party is/is becoming. 

Edited by Tyzack

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I wouldn't call Beto O'Rourke, your biggest pull atm, a non cis-gendered white guy.

 

DpeY7yzUUAAqh-3.jpg

 

Look at this and tell me thats Hispanic.

 

Besides, he was also one of HRC's superdelegates, so I am still not sold on him.

 

As for the forcing comment, I was talking about you selling the nomination to HRC because you refused to trust the public to pick what they wanted in a candidate. Don't do that again.

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"Generically, the candidate who can best do that would be someone who isn't a straight cis-genedered white male."

 

Excuse me if I laugh.

 

 

If you end up with a candidate that is, non-white, a woman or gay (although do you have a gay candidate that might even be thought of as a serious contender in either 2020 or 2024?) because it turns out that the best candidate you can muster has one or more of those characteristics then fine, but it seems to me that what you are at is saying that the nominee bust be a non-cis, non-white and none male. I think that shows a complete misandurstanding of the American political scene. That Obama was balck may have been the icing on the cake when he ran against HRC (and Mccain in the general election) but it was the icing not the meat of his appeal. He was scene as a fresh  articulate and interesting change from the CLinton/HRC known reality. 

 

Now that "ORourke can harldly be called hispanic in your eyes only shows the very real racism in your own views. Hispanic is not a racial term, it is a bit a cultural classification to question his authenticity as of his Hispanicness because he seems too 'White" for you comes off as rather offfensive and racist to Hispanics of all types ( or at least to the mass majority of them that on not the toady's of their white liberal masters.) You are in no position to say who is Hispanic or not, if O'Rourke proves to be inauthentic that will come out in the heat of a national campaign but will have absolutely nothing to do with what "White's believe. Any efforts to point out that he is not "Hispanic" by the likes of you will likely engender a backlash one that make the Sanders bros retreat from the HRC candidancy look like a lovefest. 

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I have no idea what your trying to say in that text wall. Your quotes are all over the place.

 

The mans name is Robert, and lets be real here, Ty was talking about skin color. Thats why he specified "non-white". I'm not being racist by pointing out what Beto's skin-tone is. I don't care where he fits in culturally, the man was born in El-Paso, he probably fits in culturally fine. I am talking pure skin-tone, because apparently thats a selling point for Ty.

 

Now whose getting their panties in a twist Cubarey?

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4 minutes ago, Lenlo said:

I have no idea what your trying to say in that text wall. Your quotes are all over the place.

 

The mans name is Robert, and lets be real here, Ty was talking about skin color. Thats why he specified "non-white". I'm not being racist by pointing out what Beto's skin-tone is. I don't care where he fits in culturally, the man was born in El-Paso, he probably fits in culturally fine. I am talking pure skin-tone, because apparently thats a selling point for Ty.

 

Now whose getting their panties in a twist Cubarey?

And skin color counts for nothing when detrmining whether one is considered Hispanic at least to other Hispanics. The only one's who seem to think that skin color is a reflection of Hispanicness are liberal white's. Now what will bite O"Rourke in the ass is that he is in fact not hispanic. He's heirtage is pure Irish and he comes from a rather rich family (thus the comparison's to the Kennedy's). He does speak Spaniish fluently but he is in no way culturally Hispanic. What will likely halt his candidancy among Hispnanics is a claim either (indrectly by his own campaign) of by other white liberals that he is a Hispanic which seems to what liberals that are unware of this true descent are implying. Moreover, this will be an especially large factor for Hispanics that are neither of Mexican origins or are not from Texas, as his popularity inHispanic  East Texas will not neccesarily translate well outside of that region where most Hispanics while happy that he can speak Spanish will be much less tuned into the concerns that endaired him to the El Paso Hispanic community.

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4 minutes ago, CUBAREY said:

And skin color counts for nothing when detrmining whether one is considered Hispanic at least to other Hispanics. The only one's who seem to think that skin color is a reflection of Hispanicness are liberal white's. Now what will bite O"Rourke in the ass is that he is in fact not hispanic. He's heirtage is pure Irish and he comes from a rather rich family (thus the comparison's to the Kennedy's). He does speak Spaniish fluently but he is in no way culturally Hispanic. What will likely halt his candidancy among Hispnanics is a claim either (indrectly by his own campaign) of by other white liberals that he is a Hispanic which seems to what liberals that are unware of this true descent are implying. Moreover, this will be an especially large factor for Hispanics that are neither of Mexican origins or are not from Texas, as his popularity inHispanic  East Texas will not neccesarily translate well outside of that region where most Hispanics while happy that he can speak Spanish will be much less tuned into the concerns that endaired him to the El Paso Hispanic community.

Liberal whites like the exact voters Ty is trying to get?

 

None of this invalidates my point that Ty can't use Beto as a "Non-White Non-Male Non-Cis-Gendered Candidate"

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9 minutes ago, Lenlo said:

Liberal whites like the exact voters Ty is trying to get?

 

None of this invalidates my point that Ty can't use Beto as a "Non-White Non-Male Non-Cis-Gendered Candidate"

While I agree with you about Ty being unable to point to O'Rourke as being non-White, I do take umbridge with  your  at least indirect implication  that the fact that O'Rourke is racially white disqualifies him from being Hispanic.  In my mind it's a telling sign of actual attempt to fit people into categories that agree with your own prejudices and frankly it's taken as extremely offensive.

 

 

Beto O'Rourke does not qualify not because he is white but because he is not Hispanic in any way.

Edited by CUBAREY

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8 minutes ago, CUBAREY said:

While I agree with you about Ty being unable to point to O'Rourke as being non-White, I do take umbridge with  your  at least indirect implication  that the fact that O'Rourke is racially white disqualifies him from being Hispanic.  In my mind it's a telling sign of actual attempt to fit people into categories that agree with your own prejudices and frankly it's taken as extremely offensive.

 

 

Beto O'Rourke does not qualify not because he is white but because he is not Hispanic in any way.

I was trying to speak purely of skin tone here. I personally don't care if he is Hispanic or what have you. Hispanic is a cultural thing, white is a race thing. To say Beto can't be Hispanic because he is to white doesn't fit with your own definitions of what it means to be Hispanic, so the statement is incompatible from the start.

 

What would you have preferred me to say? He is to white to be Mexican or Spaniard? Canelo Álvarez proves that wrong and Spaniards are traditionally lighter because its Europe. That he wasn't brown enough? I went about it the most tactful way I could while on short time at work. The point got across.

 

Like I said, don't get your panties in a twist.

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2 hours ago, Lenlo said:

I wouldn't call Beto O'Rourke, your biggest pull atm, a non cis-gendered white guy.

Look at this and tell me thats Hispanic.

 

Besides, he was also one of HRC's superdelegates, so I am still not sold on him.

 

As for the forcing comment, I was talking about you selling the nomination to HRC because you refused to trust the public to pick what they wanted in a candidate. Don't do that again.

 

... Perhaps you're missreading my posts; the bold are the people who fit the definition of non-cis-gendered straight white guy (ie, he's hispanic).

 

I didn't sell any nomination to anyone. Hillary was supposed to get the 2008 nominiation, but when Obama was she was given the 2016 one. There were 2 other people declared against her - Sheldon Whitehouse from RI, and a guy from Maryland who I forget - the Sanders registered as a democrat to run in the primaries...

 

...anyway...

 

my point is/has always been that HRC < Sanders but HRC > (most) republicans therefore, who the f cares, vote for her over our current cry baby and chief.

 

But this thread is about 2020...

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I didn't know he was Irish. 

 

Updated the original post, still think he's a better candidate that the other caucasions; biden and sanders.

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1 hour ago, CUBAREY said:

"Generically, the candidate who can best do that would be someone who isn't a straight cis-genedered white male."

 

Excuse me if I laugh.

 

 

If you end up with a candidate that is, non-white, a woman or gay (although do you have a gay candidate that might even be thought of as a serious contender in either 2020 or 2024?) because it turns out that the best candidate you can muster has one or more of those characteristics then fine, but it seems to me that what you are at is saying that the nominee bust be a non-cis, non-white and none male. I think that shows a complete misandurstanding of the American political scene. That Obama was balck may have been the icing on the cake when he ran against HRC (and Mccain in the general election) but it was the icing not the meat of his appeal. He was scene as a fresh  articulate and interesting change from the CLinton/HRC known reality. 

 

 

New governor of Colorado is gay, but that's another matter.

 

And you are beginning to agree with my larger point. Candidates who win are candidates who can create a story an aspirational story around themselves.

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5 minutes ago, Tyzack said:

 

... Perhaps you're missreading my posts; the bold are the people who fit the definition of non-cis-gendered straight white guy (ie, he's hispanic).

 

I didn't sell any nomination to anyone. Hillary was supposed to get the 2008 nominiation, but when Obama was she was given the 2016 one. There were 2 other people declared against her - Sheldon Whitehouse from RI, and a guy from Maryland who I forget - the Sanders registered as a democrat to run in the primaries...

 

...anyway...

 

my point is/has always been that HRC < Sanders but HRC > (most) republicans therefore, who the f cares, vote for her over our current cry baby and chief.

 

But this thread is about 2020...

Ill keep bringin it up, you can't give away a Democratic Nomination and still call it a Democracy. Thats false advertising and cheating the people. And you wonder why so many people were pissed enough to vote against you just to teach you a lesson.

 

Spite is a powerful motivator. Guess we will see how much of that lesson was learned in 2020.

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1 hour ago, Lenlo said:

I have no idea what your trying to say in that text wall. Your quotes are all over the place.

 

The mans name is Robert, and lets be real here, Ty was talking about skin color. Thats why he specified "non-white". I'm not being racist by pointing out what Beto's skin-tone is. I don't care where he fits in culturally, the man was born in El-Paso, he probably fits in culturally fine. I am talking pure skin-tone, because apparently thats a selling point for Ty.

 

Now whose getting their panties in a twist Cubarey?

Cubarey' always gets his panties in a twist whenever people mention that a Hispanic person that looks a little too white to be Hispanic.  You could say, it's one of his triggers. 

 

Often looking white doesn't mean color (Though that is often that to). Often it's how you're raised. You're economic & education background. That's kind of why a lot of people didn't think Obama was black enough. He was too white.. Which Ironically is probably what allowed him to get voted in, by whites.

 

An example of Hispanic issues differing based on ethnicity,

A White Hispanic American Citizen isn't going to get accidentally deported to Mexico because they forgot their wallet at home. A non-white Hispanic American Citizen can and I believe many have.

 

There's also various socioeconomic differences between the various ethnic populations that are Hispanic. 
In America, non Hispanic Whites have Upper Class, Middle Class, and Trailer Trash. It's probable that every ethnic and cultural group has their own upper-to-lower classes. Hispanics upper class may well tend to be on the whiter end of that spectrum.

 

Also:

If your parents were born in America, You're American. 

 

Edited by SinisterDeath

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"Often looking white doesn't mean color (Though that is often that to). Often it's how you're raised. You're economic & education background. That's kind of why a lot of people didn't think Obama was black enough. He was too white.. Which Ironically is probably what allowed him to get voted in, by whites."

 

That I think is a very "white" way of looking at the subject.

 

 

For most Hispanic whether one is Hispanic or not has little to do with ones color nor once place in the social economic status ladder but whether one is culturally Hispanic ( i.e. has descent from Latin America or Iberia, either speaks spanish (actually Castillian) or has relatives who do and who grew up enmessed in the acutruments of Hispanic culture (music, literacture, social structures. etc.)

 

 

People who think that someone is not Hispanic enough becuase they are racially white or economicly blessed or who few Obama not "Black enough" are the same that call people Uncle Tom's or Tio Tato's. Yia so I do get a bit triggered by rather ignorent "whites" defining who is or is not hispanic. However, I do not get my panties in a bunch since I do not own any (you perhaps mistake me for Ty) although I must admit I do sometimes enjoy getting my wives panties in a bunch. 😎

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54 minutes ago, Lenlo said:

Ill keep bringin it up, you can't give away a Democratic Nomination and still call it a Democracy. Thats false advertising and cheating the people. And you wonder why so many people were pissed enough to vote against you just to teach you a lesson.

 

Spite is a powerful motivator. Guess we will see how much of that lesson was learned in 2020.

 

Do you want me to say that the person who got the most votes won, because that's true too, and it's going to be true this time too.

Edited by Tyzack

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3 minutes ago, CUBAREY said:

 

People who think that someone is not Hispanic enough becuase they are racially white or economicly blessed or who few Obama not "Black enough" are the same that call people Uncle Tom's or Tio Tato's. Yia so I do get a bit triggered by rather ignorent "whites" defining who is or is not hispanic. However, I do not get my panties in a bunch since I do not own any (you perhaps mistake me for Ty) although I must admit I do sometimes enjoy getting my wives panties in a bunch. 😎

 

Jumping into say I don't own panties...I borrow all the ones I wear.

(and it's only once, okay 3, times a year)

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"A White Hispanic American Citizen isn't going to get accidentally deported to Mexico because they forgot their wallet at home. A non-white Hispanic American Citizen can and I believe many have."

 

Lot's of "White: Hispanics have been arrested in South Florida and other parts of the country. It has very little to do with color and a lot with whether you are fluent in English, which by the way many wealthy white hispanics in Florida and other places in the US, are not since many are recent immigrants from Puerto Rico, Venezuela Argentina, Chile, Brazil etc. they both possess education and money but not english language skills so they do get detained until they can prove their legal status.

 

 

"In America, non Hispanic Whites have Upper Class, Middle Class, and Trailer Trash. It's probable that every ethnic and cultural group has their own upper-to-lower classes. Hispanics upper class may well tend to be on the whiter end of that spectrum."

 

That is definately true but that does not take away from the fact that they would all identify each other as Hispanic because economic status is not a primary identifyer of being Hispanic as it is not a primary identifyer of being white, black or Asian.

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