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2 hours ago, CUBAREY said:

1. Share in shared American values, and 2. be a possitive for the country. Immigration should be about how it helps this country not how the immigrants are benefited.

True.

 

But if anyone embodies the American spirit, I'd assume those running from Drug Cartels in Latin America would, over Muslim refugees from the middle east, escaping religious persecution from other Muslims, with no real ambition to become American, integrate, and expect their laws to come with them. (Not all obviously.)

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6 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

True.

 

But if anyone embodies the American spirit, I'd assume those running from Drug Cartels in Latin America would, over Muslim refugees from the middle east, escaping religious persecution from other Muslims, with no real ambition to become American, integrate, and expect their laws to come with them. (Not all obviously.)

Well I think that the Latin Americans are a better fit. However, whether they share our values is somewhat questionable. Moreover, whether they are actually good for this country is really problematic. They are unskilled, undeducated and although many are willing to work it should be noted that many also think that that fact entitles them to be allowed into the country, which it does not. They are simply not the type of immigration that a 21st century economy can readibly utilize to the benefit of the society. In fact they simply compete with the lowest wrung of our exisiting society and make their struggles even worse. 

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11 hours ago, CUBAREY said:

Well I think that the Latin Americans are a better fit. However, whether they share our values is somewhat questionable. Moreover, whether they are actually good for this country is really problematic. They are unskilled, undeducated and although many are willing to work it should be noted that many also think that that fact entitles them to be allowed into the country, which it does not. They are simply not the type of immigration that a 21st century economy can readibly utilize to the benefit of the society. In fact they simply compete with the lowest wrung of our exisiting society and make their struggles even worse. 

Perhaps, but if you ever watch Mike Rowe, there's clearly jobs (skills gap) out there for the lowest wrung's of our society, Many Americans, like you feel those jobs are beneath them.

So at some point we're going to reach this tipping point where American's won't do the jobs that keep society moving along, while at the same time trying to block/rely on automation to solve that gap.

So you may see them as having no use in our modern day society, other's see them, perhaps as our future while we gear-shift up into even further higher education....

 

In an ultra-educated society, someone's got to be the Janitor.

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"Many Americans, like you feel those jobs are beneath them.?

 

What? Yia I am educated and trained in a profession that offers a very good living without getting my hands dirty but that does not mean that I look down on people who have menial jobs quite a few of my relatives when they landed in the US went from being professionals to factory workers. I also grew up in a working class neighborhood. As for Mike Rowe the jobs he speaks about are those that do not require a 4 year college education but do require technical school or working as a journeymen jobs which people that are functionally illeterate (as are the vast majority of Latin immigrants in their own language much less english) are fundamentally unqualified for.

 

 

"So at some point we're going to reach this tipping point where American's won't do the jobs that keep society moving along, while at the same time trying to block/rely on automation to solve that gap."

 

The vast majority of Trump's working class supporters have no problem with doing jobs that require a technical school education.

 

In an ultra-educated society, someone's got to be the Janitor."

Yes, but you do not need millions of immigrants much less millions of illegal immigrants to fill those jobs.

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8 hours ago, CUBAREY said:

I also grew up in a working class neighborhood. As for Mike Rowe the jobs he speaks about are those that do not require a 4 year college education but do require technical school or working as a journeymen jobs which people that are functionally illeterate (as are the vast majority of Latin immigrants in their own language much less english) are fundamentally unqualified for.

Many of those jobs, are also able to be taught, on the job.
 

Many of those technical schools are 6 weeks of education.

Do you need to go to school to pick up trash cans? Or operate a trash-can lifter?

 

8 hours ago, CUBAREY said:

The vast majority of Trump's working class supporters have no problem with doing jobs that require a technical school education.

Perhaps. But I'd say the vast majority of business owners that vote Trump very  much have a problem with tech school jobs. They probably hate the fact that those people even vote.

 

Quote

Yes, but you do not need millions of immigrants much less millions of illegal immigrants to fill those jobs.

Ummm Yea you do.

If every card carrying American within the next 20 years has a 2+ Year degree, they are all above Janitor jobs. 

Do you really think there are only 1 Million Janitorial jobs in the US?

Edited by SinisterDeath

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On 12/4/2018 at 10:11 PM, CUBAREY said:

"With the Trump administration making it extremely hard to get in via official ports of entry, what do you expect them to do? "

 

Since almost none can actually qualify under refugee status they are like all would be immigrants and have a legal path at their disposal; apply at the local American consulate or embassy in their country and wait to here whether their application has been approved.

 

There are many parts of Mexico which are free of the violence associated with the drug cartel (the vast majority of the country as it happens). Also so what would you think if we let in these people but required them to live in parts of Chicaco, Detroit and other urban areas where the violence associated with the drug trade is quite comparable to that in the effected parts of Mexico?

 

As for qualifying for refugee status, you may be right, but that's something to be decided.  The situation is bad enough in a lot of Central American countries that a lawyer could make a legit argument that people who flee are not simply economic migrants.

 

As for resettling them in Detroit, or somewhere bad in Chicago, I'd say it's probably still better than Mexico because the police probably aren't going to be as dirty.  I'd rather have to deal with indifference than outright malice.

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"As for qualifying for refugee status, you may be right, but that's something to be decided.  The situation is bad enough in a lot of Central American countries that a lawyer could make a legit argument that people who flee are not simply economic migrants."

 

Dude that is not the legal standard, you have to show that your reason for wanting to come to the US actually fits into the definition of "refugee" on American and international law which is not easy at all. Among the most obvious problem is that one looses the status of "refugee" if he enters a country adjoining his own and is or could be granted asylum. Mexico already offered everyone in the Caravan not only refugee status in Mexico but residence and jobs in peaceful parts of the country and they refused it. It's not enough that you can show that you are not simply an economic migrant the reasons for you leaving your country have to actually be among the reasons included in the legal definition of refugee which does not include fear due to crime even widespread crime unless you can show a credible threat to you or your family personally and an inability or unwillingness of the local government to protect you(Hint this has to be  systematic or intentional unwillingness to protect you-- that's why residents of parts of Chicago and Detroit are not viewed as legitimate refugees ins Canada). Moreover, the fact that Mexico offered refuge but the people refused automaticly places them outside the defintion of a legitimate refugee as the intent of international law and US law is to prevent "forum shoppiong". Indeed the entire jist of international law is have the the countries bordering the home country take the refugees as this places  a burdon on the closet neighbors to attempt to develop or force a resolution within the effected country.

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"I'd say it's probably still better than Mexico because the police probably aren't going to be as dirty.  I'd rather have to deal with indifference than outright malice."

 

You have a very warped view the Mexican police likely engendered by your consumption of the hyperinflamatory American mass media. While their definately are Mexican law enforcement officals (especially in certain areas) that are little more then criminals with badges the overwhelming number of Mexican law enforcement officers, are honest, hard working and attempting to provide effective law enforcement to the community that they belong to.

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You could argue that someone fleeing gangs like MS-13 or 18th Street is not safe anywhere in Mexico or certain parts of the US.  It's a tough argument to make unless you have some reason in particular to think you've attracted their ire.  I'm sure someone who specializes in refugee law could think of something much better than my armchair stuff though.

 

As for my view on Mexican cops, I think they're people like anyone else.  Some are bad, most are good, and no one is all one or the other.  The only reason I say they're more likely to be dirty is because of the power the cartels exert in Mexico.  When your most notorious drug lord can dig a mile long tunnel to escape prison without anyone noticing it's kind of hard to have faith in the system.

Edited by WWWwombat

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I'm also well aware that American foreign policy since the latter half of the 20th century has done nothing but exacerbate such problems in Latin America.

Edited by WWWwombat

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36 minutes ago, WWWwombat said:

I'm also well aware that American foreign policy since the latter half of the 20th century has done nothing but exacerbate such problems in Latin America.

It actually had done a damn good job to liquidate the politcal influence of the Narco traffiers/ Leftest Revoltionaries in Columbia (of course with an able assist from the "Pepes but hey you cannot look a gift horse in the mouth). Not saying that the drug trade has been ended in Columbia (that can not happen when there are so many willing customers in the US) but the serious crime wave of the 1980's and 1990's which threatened the very existance of the state has been long (and bloodily ended). 

 

 

Further outside of the cocaine trade the problems that Latin America has experienced are almost entirely a product of homegrown inadequacies which American foreign policy has largely not effected for the good or bad.

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If a Refugee from Slovakia is fleeing genocide from the Ukraine, heading to Germany through Czechia.

 

By Cubarey's definition they would not be refugees if Czechia is willing to grant them refugee status, even if they are really just pulling a bait and switch scheme with the Ukraine. 

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15 hours ago, CUBAREY said:

It actually had done a damn good job to liquidate the politcal influence of the Narco traffiers/ Leftest Revoltionaries in Columbia (of course with an able assist from the "Pepes but hey you cannot look a gift horse in the mouth). Not saying that the drug trade has been ended in Columbia (that can not happen when there are so many willing customers in the US) but the serious crime wave of the 1980's and 1990's which threatened the very existance of the state has been long (and bloodily ended). 

 

 

Further outside of the cocaine trade the problems that Latin America has experienced are almost entirely a product of homegrown inadequacies which American foreign policy has largely not effected for the good or bad.

 

Obviously any solution to Latin American problems has to start with Latin Americans.  That being said, toppling governments at the rate we did in the Cold War era doesn't exactly help stability.  And wet feet, dry feet was a bad policy that ended up playing right into the hands of Mexican drug traffickers by giving them a nice revenue stream that no one really cared about.

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7 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

If a Refugee from Slovakia is fleeing genocide from the Ukraine, heading to Germany through Czechia.

 

By Cubarey's definition they would not be refugees if Czechia is willing to grant them refugee status, even if they are really just pulling a bait and switch scheme with the Ukraine. 

 

EU laws complicate things a bit IIRC.  This was a big issue with Syrian refugees a couple years back.

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"And wet feet, dry feet was a bad policy that ended up playing right into the hands of Mexican drug traffickers by giving them a nice revenue stream that no one really cared about."

 

Wet feet dry feet only ever applied to "Cubans" and they were two small a group to really matter to the Mexican drug carterls. The Coyotes were a different thing but unlike other refugees the Cubans who used the Coyotes had an Ace in the hole that helped them not be preyed on by the Coyote to the same extent then others. To put it bluntly most of the security details of the Columbian and Most Mexican drug lords were personally led by Cuban born criminals that had serious ties to the CIA and right wing latin government security forces. And these men were seen as "Serious" by the Coyotes and they made their feelings well known about any Coyote abusing a Cuban refugee that used there services. Some of the bloodiest episodes concerning Coyotes involved cases where they pissed of said Cuban security types. 

 

 

Here is a good explaination of the legal principles involved in having to apply for refugee status in the first country you arrive after leaving your home country.

 

https://cis.org/Cadman/Why-Shouldnt-Central-Americans-Have-Apply-Asylum-Mexico

 

See also the UN convention and p r o t o c o l  r e l a t i n g  t o  t h e  s tat u s  o f  Published by: r e f u g e e s

https://www.unhcr.org/en-us/protection/basic/3b66c2aa10/convention-protocol-relating-status-refugees.html  Which sets the actual requirements for all signatory nations.

 

1.Among the important limitations of the International Treaty on Refugees is that limits coverage to persons who "owing to wellfounded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country".  

 

Please note that criminal activity in a country even if rampent does not give someone from that country the status of a refugee.

 

2.  A Country that is a signatory to the Refugee Treaty can impose penaltites on so-called refugees who enter such country illegally from a country other then the one in which their life is endangered.

 

 

"The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence."

 

3. Moreover,the Refugee treaty only prohibits a signatory state from expelling a refugee and returning him to the borders of his own country if said refugee is lawfully within territory of the signatory country.

 

"The Contracting States shall not expel a refugee lawfully in their territory save on grounds of national security or public order".

 

4. Further, Due process is only required to be given to a refugee that is within the territory of a signatory country legally.

 

"The expulsion of such a refugee shall be only in pursuance of a decision reached in accordance with due process of law. Except where compelling reasons of national security otherwise require, the refugee shall be allowed to submit evidence to clear himself, and to appeal to and be represented for the purpose before competent authority or a person or persons specially designated by the competent authority."

 

 

 

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