Raken, To'raken, and the Last Battle (Spoilers!)

[Maedelin]

Ok, so I am listening to AMoL right now and another question popped into my head.  It was said that draghkar, trollocs, and other denizens of the Dark One cannot pass through gateways and live.  When Fortuona and the Seanchan return to Mat at the Last Battle, the flying creatures soared through gateways. (Which honestly, how can the Seanchan make large gateways when they can only use one damane and sul'dam as the a'dam prohibits any further linking?  That's a question unto itself!)  How did they do that and not drop dead?  It was said in multiple books, by sideways allusion, and the Forsaken that the Seanchan chained the Shadowspawn on their continent.

[wotfan4472]

It is because the Shadowspawn are created from the True Power. Because of this the gateway kills them instantly when they pass through. I think it is hinted that the stedding also do it, but gradually over time. The creatures the Seanchan use pass through gateways, because they are native to a world or worlds through the portal stones. They are born of the One Power giving the energy to their world or worlds.

[Sabio]

They can enter a stedding, but the companion says it takes strong force to make Trollocs enter a stedding.  Also I found interesting that it says even a darkfriends feel uncomfortable in a stedding.

 

As wotfan pointed out, the Seanchan exotics are not shadow spawn but it was believed they were brought by portal stones to this world to fight shadowspawn.  It was mentioned that by time Hawkwing's son landed there all shadowspawn on the Seanchan continent were gone.  So these are beasts from other worlds, shadowspawn are creations using the one power and true power.  Hawkwing's son assumed the strange animals were shadowspawn since they had never seen anything like them before.

 

I agree it did seem odd these gateways the Seanchan were suddenly tossing up to let large animals through.

Edited March 26, 2018 by Sabio

[solarz]

23 hours ago, Sabio said:

I agree it did see odd these gateways the Seanchan were suddenly tossing up to let large animals through.

 

I've noticed that BS took a lot of liberties with the way Gateways work in his books.

[Jagen Sedai]

It is very plausible that at least one damane has the gateway Talent, as Androl does. Even if that's not the case, strong channelers can make huge gateways, though I cannot recall if the largest is stated (Though Pevara thought Androl was exaggerating when he said the largest he made was 30 feet wide). Perhaps a channeler stronger than him and with the Talent can make 60-foot gateways.

 

Also, I'm glad Sanderson took liberties with the gateways. It was very creative, and also logical, in the sense that at least one channeler should have immediately started to experiment with gateways after learning the weaves. Aes Sedai don't like experimenting, though,  so it made sense it was Black Tower guy to figure it out.

[TheSociopath]

while one of the damane probably does have the talent, does the damane with the talent know the weave? They have a lot knowadays, and they only had one or two AS that knew the weave. They very likely only had time to get that knowledge to a portion of their forces

[Jagen Sedai]

I think that as soon as Fortuona witnessed "Suffa" with the weave, she must've had every damane who could learn it, taught. I mean, why not? And once one can do a gateway, if a damane had been in, say, Tarabon before Ebou Dar, they could easily Travel there and teach the others.

[TheSociopath]

yeah, but at that point in the series, the seanchan controlled Altara, Amadicia, Tarabon, most of Arad Doman, and everything in between. 

Further, more, there would be a bunch of damane in random army camps that are unknown to the ones doing the traveling. In fact, a large amount of the damane in Ebou Dar probably haven't been to many of the other main cities they control.

And in addition to all of that, it would take even longer for the Seanchan heads to figure out which damane have been where, and are strong enough to travel. 

 

Also, if they just open a gateway in the middle of some palace somewhere, it is very likely that there could be some casualities before everything gets straightened out.

[Jagen Sedai]

My point was only it is very probable they had enough to do what needed to be done. They were using gateways effectively by the end of the series. 

[TheSociopath]

I suppose

[solarz]

On 3/30/2018 at 3:52 PM, Jagen Sedai said:

It is very plausible that at least one damane has the gateway Talent, as Androl does. Even if that's not the case, strong channelers can make huge gateways, though I cannot recall if the largest is stated (Though Pevara thought Androl was exaggerating when he said the largest he made was 30 feet wide). Perhaps a channeler stronger than him and with the Talent can make 60-foot gateways.

 

Also, I'm glad Sanderson took liberties with the gateways. It was very creative, and also logical, in the sense that at least one channeler should have immediately started to experiment with gateways after learning the weaves. Aes Sedai don't like experimenting, though,  so it made sense it was Black Tower guy to figure it out.

 

I think it's the other way around. It cheapened the narrative and made gateways into a Deus Ex Machina.

 

The problem is that RJ had some definite rules for gateways to keep them from being abusable. When BS tossed away those rules, he gave rise to questions of why gateways were not used even more effectively.

 

For example, Elayne could not close the Caemlyn Waygate because the strike teams she sent were destroyed. Why did it not occur to her to use a gateway to direct dragon fire against the Waygate? Why not use gateways + dragons against trollocs in Caemlyn? Why not send the dragons somewhere safe, then use gateways to fire upon the Shadow army from whatever angle is most effective?

 

The White Tower AS discovered how to make horizontal gateways for scouting. Why did it never occur to them to use those gateways for attack weaves? Why not have a circle of 13 throw massive flame strikes against the Sharan army from the sky? Verin and Alanna were able to enchant catapult stones to explode, why not just toss such stones down horizontal gateways? Put those gateways high enough, and the Sharan channelers wouldn't even be able to retaliate.

 

If gateways can allow volcano lava to pour through, why did no one think of using gateways to dump sea water on armies? Enough water would drown the army, even lesser amounts would slow the army to a crawl.

 

Why didn't Androl try his volcano trick in Merrilor? Dumping a ton of lava on Demandred's head would have been more effective than Logaine's heroics.

Edited April 4, 2018 by solarz

[Jagen Sedai]

Elayne is an idiot, as she proves time and again. It doesn't surprise me it didn't occur to her; she doesn't stop to think.

 

Though who were the WT AS who discovered horizontal gateways?

 

 

[solarz]

16 minutes ago, Jagen Sedai said:

Elayne is an idiot, as she proves time and again. It doesn't surprise me it didn't occur to her; she doesn't stop to think.

 

Though who were the WT AS who discovered horizontal gateways?

 

Yukiri.

 

Elayne was smart enough to discover the weakness of Mat's medallion. Besides, she had generals and officers who saw regular use of gateways. Rand himself fought on that battlefield. Rand, who held the memories of LTT. If there was a tactical use of gateway, LTT would have known of it.

 

The fact is, before AMOL, all gateways were created vertical and directly in front of and facing the weaver. Deathgates were an exception, but it was mentioned that they required a slightly different weave. Even then, they were vertical.

[TheSociopath]

I'm pretty sure that it was actually Vandene and Adeleas who discovered Mats loophole.

[Sabio]

Well they were both murdered by the BA, so karma.  Fling poo at Mat and you get murdered by the BA.